Bang Zoom to Cease Anime Dubbing in 2011 Without Fan Support

[Yamamaya]

I think the industry simply didn't know how to react to it so they simply made the occasional, "STOP WATCHING FANSUBS YOU SELFISH MAGGOTS" and went about their business. They simply did not understand that they needed to stoop to attract the fanbase. They just thought to themselves, "Selfish little turds, not buying our DVDs."

They also failed to recognize the biggest flaw in their products. Buying an anime season box set is the same as buying an expensive American TV show box set. Most people who have never seen the show will be reluctant to pay that much money for the product. Hence, they watch it on TV first. Heck, they might even TIVO/record it. Same goes with anime. People watch it for free, then decide whether they want to buy the box set or not.

[Nate]

That's a good point, with TV season box sets, most people have already seen the show on TV and know if they like it or not. Since some of the more niche anime doesn't get TV airtime, there's no way for a person to see it to know if they'll like it. And with companies getting litigation-happy on stuff like Youtube, it's getting more and more difficult to even see clips of a show.

I also still think that they don't realize the impact fansubs can have. I seriously don't think Haruhi would have been as immensely popular as it was if it wasn't for fansubs. How would people have known about it? It got as big as it did because of fansubs, I think, and without that initial exposure, it wouldn't have done as well.

This is a bit different than stuff like say, Naruto and Bleach, which I'm sure would still have been popular even without fansubs, because shonen stuff seems to do well (DBZ became a mega-hit before fansubs were really widespread). And Pokemon, well yeah, the games are what drove that one.

[KhakiBlueSocks]

[font="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="4"][color="RoyalBlue"]::sets his $0.02 on the table::

To me, it's either arrogance or ignorance to believe that the entire US Anime industry will fall because a dubbing company like "Bang! Zoom!" goes under. "Bang! Zoom!" is a business just like any other business--it has it's ups and downs. As it stands right now, this is one of the downs. And they're at an even worse disadvantage because they don't actually license anime--they just create the english language track. Don't get me wrong, if they do go under, it will be a hit to the anime community in the US. However, companies like Funimation who do most of their stuff in-house, won't be as heavily affected.[/color][/SIZE][/font]

[MasterDias]

So. Bang Zoom! CEO Eric Sherman is on ANNCast this week. Notably, he's making a distinction between fansubs (which he didn't sound very harsh on actually) and ripped R1 DVD releases, which are evidently a pretty serious problem for them.

But, the most interesting thing to come out of it is that Bandai Entertainment apparently has everything riding on this year's Haruhi releases and one other title. Otherwise, they are through...

[Nate]

Okay I can totally support them being against ripped R1 DVD releases.

And actually...looking back at the initial post, nowhere does he mention fansubs. He just mentions "getting it illegally" and "downloading from torrents." Now, in all honesty, the number of people torrenting or downloading dubbed R1 rips is probably very small in comparison to the fansub downloaders, but I can admit that I seem to have jumped to conclusions on this.

Wait a second...

Eric P. Sherman, President and CEO of the anime dubbing company Bang Zoom! Entertainment, has posted an editorial on the AnimeTV blog on Saturday, urging fans to buy anime instead of watching it via fan-subbed videos.

But wait, that's not what Sherman said. He just said he didn't want people getting their fix illegally. He didn't mention fansubs. What kind of irresponsible journ-

animenewsnetwork.com

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

Well played, ANN. Well played. :l

[ShiroiHikari]

So...you're saying Bandai will go under if Haruhi doesn't sell enough copies? Which Bandai are we talking about here? Surely not the video game-toy-anime-etc. empire from Japan.

All joking aside, I'd like to see some sources on that Bandai thing. If they really are betting on such a small number of titles to pull them through, then they're idiots.

[blkmage]

So...you're saying Bandai will go under if Haruhi doesn't sell enough copies? Which Bandai are we talking about here? Surely not the video game-toy-anime-etc. empire from Japan.

All joking aside, I'd like to see some sources on that Bandai thing. If they really are betting on such a small number of titles to pull them through, then they're idiots.

Probably the American distribution branch. IIRC, Bandai Visual (another branch) died last year. They were the ones who were pushing new, not that popular shows for loljapan (True Tears and Shigofumi) prices.

EDIT: Also, I'm interested to see how he distinguishes the two, but am too lazy to listen to their podcast. I know in general terms how they're distinguished, but I want to know the exact wording that he uses because it's always interesting to see how these sorts of people carefully construct statements whenever talk about this stuff. Also, I'm interested in seeing whether his distinction between the two is something he intended (but failed) to get across in his original article or it it's some reactionary backpedaling.

[minakichan]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

Well played, ANN. Well played. :l

...Pretty interesting there. The idea that ANN would go out of their way to try to cast fansubs in a negative light in their reporting, that is.

ANN editors and writers constantly condemn fansubs. It's understandable since they obviously can't condone them, but they'll go out of their way to say that fansubs hurt the industry. But interestingly, they have seasonal anime previews done by staff members about what new series are coming out in Japan. Unless they all live in Japan, or unless they all fly to Japan at the beginning of each new season to catch the latest anime, they prooooooobably all use fansubs.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

So. Bang Zoom! CEO Eric Sherman is on ANNCast this week. Notably, he's making a distinction between fansubs (which he didn't sound very harsh on actually) and ripped R1 DVD releases, which are evidently a pretty serious problem for them.

But, the most interesting thing to come out of it is that Bandai Entertainment apparently has everything riding on this year's Haruhi releases and one other title. Otherwise, they are through...

Bandai Entertainment Responds to ANNCast Comments:

In response to Mr. Sherman's comments and how they were interpreted, Bandai Entertainment has no plans to close down. We actually had a very good year in 2009 and good results in the first quarter of 2010. We have new titles to announce soon and we will be exhibiting at Anime Expo, Otakon, and New York Anime Festival this year. Mr. Sherman's speculations about the state of the anime industry are interesting, but not accurate as it pertains to Bandai Entertainment, except in regard to the point that he was actually trying to make that if the market trend continues where there is little support for dubbed anime products, we may unfortunately discontinue creating dubs and focus on sub-only releases. Hopefully this does not happen. We continue to be grateful to the fans that support our business.

From Ken Iyadomi, President of Bandai Entertainment.

[ShiroiHikari]

Glad to see that my hunch was correct and Bandai isn't going anywhere.

[Cognitive Gear]

Mr. Sherman's speculations about the state of the anime industry are interesting, but not accurate as it pertains to Bandai Entertainment, except in regard to the point that he was actually trying to make that if the market trend continues where there is little support for dubbed anime products, we may unfortunately discontinue creating dubs and focus on sub-only releases. Hopefully this does not happen.

This is the most interesting thing there, in my opinion. It seems that the demand for dubs is a niche within a niche, which to me speak volumes about the average anime fan.

[airichan623]

I love dubs, but sometimes I really, really, dont want to own it, at least not until AFTER I've seen most of the series online already. For instance, I love Code Geass. But sometimes the content level is too high for me to own it without people (outside of anime fandom) thinking I'm buying porno. It's the sad truth. I watched a couple episodes on Adult Swim, loved it, but then Adult Swim pulled it. So, out of anger, I'm watching the entire series dubbed online. I feel really bad, and I will buy it (USED) someday. Just not now. My paycheck is NOT that big.

I wish they could turn off all fansub sites and replace them with hulu type things. that way, i'd b legal AND not behind everyone else.

[KeybladeWarrior]

Well companies could start streaming their anime more often and try to get some sponsors or just make their anime downloadable at sites like Itunes for low prices.

To be quite honest quality anime is not going to come in droves like it used to for the moment being. America is likely going to experience more of the so called "moe wave" that Japan experienced. In other words more titles might likely be moe-like.
PS: I may not be totally right on this, but from around 2008 to 2010 alot of the anime that Japan release had mostly moe elements to it and quite a few lacked good quality.

[mechana2015]

http://www.awesome-engine.com/2010/03/06/what-anime-actually-looked-like-in-2009/

That might be worth a read before you make that generalization...

[KeybladeWarrior]

Oh thanks. That helps me now. Some of this anime is actually quite interesting, yet I have not heard much about it. Maybe, I think as you mention in another thread mechana, is try to get the word out on certain shows to get them noticed and not overlooked? I mean I didn't think GinTama would ever come to the US, but by looking at an online website I found out merely by looking around. I heard no reports or read no blogs about Sentai Works getting the rights to it.

PS: Sentai Works is actually going to dub Clannad. Some online stores would have allowed you to send back the sub only DVDs for a complete refund. ;/

[Atria35]

[quote="KeybladeWarrior (post: 1395282)"]PS: Sentai Works is actually going to dub Clannad. Some online stores would have allowed you to send back the sub only DVDs for a complete refund. ]

Interesting, but only useful if the dub is good. Otherwise that could make for a fan mutiny.

[blkmage]

I cannot figure out how, in any scenario, doing a dub after the fact for a super-niche show like Clannad is a good idea.

[ShiroiHikari]

I'm with blkmage. :\

[KeybladeWarrior]

It really depends on who they will get to do the dub. I guess they decided to dub it, because ADV dubbed Air TV and Kannon 2006 which like Clannad are Key titles. Plus there are a few Clannad fans out their with myself included who would like to see a dub version.

[blkmage]

A dub for Clannad makes no financial sense, and for a company that's a shell company for another company that's declared bankruptcy, financial considerations should be incredibly important.

Let's suppose that there is adequate demand for a Clannad dub. You run into a few problems. The first is that the vast majority of these people will likely have bought the sub only version, as there was no indication that there was going to be a dub. Maybe they're completely satisfied with it. Maybe they don't really care and just bit the bullet. Not every one of these people will go and swap their version for the dub, even if it came at no cost.

Further, suppose a large enough number of people did take advantage of whatever offer this is and did swap them. There's an incredible amount of overhead cost, shipping physical media and now you've got a ton of unsold inventory and have made effectively no money. Okay, sure there were a few holdouts, but I'm willing to assume that the number of these people are, at this point in the product's lifecycle, financially insignificant. And those who wanted a dub but couldn't swap their sub-only DVDs for a dubbed version? Well, they mad and you have a PR problem now.

But what if there isn't adequate demand for a dub? Then you've sunk a ton of money into dubbing to appeal to a small percentage of an already niche target audience. You'll likely have blown away any profit you made from the savings of doing a sub-only release.

My point is that they should have decided which route to go with (dub or sub-only) and stuck with it. Doing a dub after a sub-only release without indicating any such intentions is pretty much worse from every business aspect than just sucking up the initial cost of doing a dub and gambling on it. Or they could have played it safe and stuck with a sub-only release like they said they would, and they would've been fine.

Quite frankly, it's these sort of terrible business decisions that cause me to have zero sympathy for these people when their businesses go under. I bought the Clannad DVDs because I assumed that they finally understood how to do releases properly and wanted them to do more of the same in the future. Imagine my disappointment when I learned that they didn't learn anything at all from the past decade.

[Nate]

My favorite saying is "Businesses exist only to make money, they don't care about people" but then anime companies go and do something stupid like this Clannad dub thing.

[blkmage]

Yeah, someone needs to realize that there's something called a happy medium that exists somewhere between screwing your customers and making tons of money, and capitulating to your customers and throwing money down the drain.

[KeybladeWarrior]

A dub for Clannad makes no financial sense, and for a company that's a shell company for another company that's declared bankruptcy, financial considerations should be incredibly important.

Let's suppose that there is adequate demand for a Clannad dub. You run into a few problems. The first is that the vast majority of these people will likely have bought the sub only version, as there was no indication that there was going to be a dub. Maybe they're completely satisfied with it. Maybe they don't really care and just bit the bullet. Not every one of these people will go and swap their version for the dub, even if it came at no cost.

Further, suppose a large enough number of people did take advantage of whatever offer this is and did swap them. There's an incredible amount of overhead cost, shipping physical media and now you've got a ton of unsold inventory and have made effectively no money. Okay, sure there were a few holdouts, but I'm willing to assume that the number of these people are, at this point in the product's lifecycle, financially insignificant. And those who wanted a dub but couldn't swap their sub-only DVDs for a dubbed version? Well, they mad and you have a PR problem now.

But what if there isn't adequate demand for a dub? Then you've sunk a ton of money into dubbing to appeal to a small percentage of an already niche target audience. You'll likely have blown away any profit you made from the savings of doing a sub-only release.

My point is that they should have decided which route to go with (dub or sub-only) and stuck with it. Doing a dub after a sub-only release without indicating any such intentions is pretty much worse from every business aspect than just sucking up the initial cost of doing a dub and gambling on it. Or they could have played it safe and stuck with a sub-only release like they said they would, and they would've been fine.

Quite frankly, it's these sort of terrible business decisions that cause me to have zero sympathy for these people when their businesses go under. I bought the Clannad DVDs because I assumed that they finally understood how to do releases properly and wanted them to do more of the same in the future. Imagine my disappointment when I learned that they didn't learn anything at all from the past decade.

I forgot to mention that Sentai Works did a recall of subs for those wanting a dub version. Those who sent the DVDs back got their money returned. I think if you subscribed to newsletters to online anime retailers like Robert's Anime Corner Store then owners were informed. I can't say it was a bad mood, because Sentai could have just been testing waters to see how the sales went and likely got comments from fans desiring a dub. Sentai Filmworks would then release a dub version out of demand. Though this just a mere idea. Technically, you can't entirely blame the industry for their bad decisions. Some decisions are based on testing it out. Giving out a dub right at the get go could have ended badly since Clannad is not that well known in the US. Testing something out and see how it goes can save some money, but it is a risky route. Instead of blaming them so much, see why they want to go certain routes. Maybe the industries did things to make more money or maybe they just wanted to test the water like I said before.

I have a feeling that due to bad decisions made by the companies and fans using illegal means to get their anime so excessively that the anime industry will go back to being something small and maybe internet only in the future. Heck, I would laugh if the companies altogether do a boycott and no longer make anime for about 10 years. They turn to something else entirely. Tick off fans and see them whine like babies. Fans complain, and companies make money on another genre of video.

[blkmage]

I've addressed the scenario in which there's a recall, which is that recalls are not free. There is an overhead cost in shipping and manufacturing and you have to deal with piles of unsold inventory. How is that going to help a company's financial situation if, as they claim, they're in danger of going out of business?

I've also addressed the point of fan demand. Either determine demand before you do a release or stick to your original release plan. Doing it after a release adds complications in PR or extraneous cost. I understand exactly why they did what they did, and I am saying that it is a bad idea and I've already explained why it is a bad idea.

The reality is that the anime industry has already receded. The problem is that these companies don't see that and their business decisions don't match this reality. Just like the music industry before them, they believe they're entitled to having business conducted on their terms and only rethink their business decisions when they are in a crisis. The difference is that the music industry is far better funded to behave in that way.

[Nate]

blkmage said it better than I could, but let me remind you that if the company is offering refunds for its sub-only DVDs, this is bad for two reasons.

1) It means that they will receive some DVDs that will now take up valuable warehouse space, unless they just throw them away or burn them (like, in a fire I mean, not burn them like copy them). However, it would be nonsensical for them to dispose of the returned DVDs because...

2) They'd likely refund shipping costs that people paid to have the DVDs sent back, meaning that they would be LOSING money by refunding the DVD purchase cost plus the shipping cost. On top of that, the DVDs they receive would be used, meaning they would not be able to be resold as new DVDs, which means that they'd have to take a lower price on any attempts to pawn them off on retailers.

From a business standpoint, this literally makes no sense whatsoever. I can understand wanting to build a relationship with your customers but there's no point in doing that if you're going to lose money on it when you're already on financially shaky ground. The relationship means nothing if the company goes bankrupt.

Technically, you can't entirely blame the industry for their bad decisions.

Why can't we?

Maybe the industries did things to make more money or maybe they just wanted to test the water like I said before.

But, as I said, they're making LESS money by doing this, and testing the waters means nothing if money is lost. Wal-Mart could "test the waters" by selling everything in the store for one cent apiece, and I bet their business would go up by like 3,000%, but they'd lose so much money they'd probably go bankrupt.

Heck, I would laugh if the companies altogether do a boycott and no longer make anime for about 10 years. They turn to something else entirely. Tick off fans and see them whine like babies. Fans complain, and companies make money on another genre of video.

Ha ha, you think that R1 DVD license companies = the companies in Japan.