Good old days of gaming?

[Bobtheduck]

I hear old gamers (haha, old... Like, what, 30?) talking about how the old games were better... All the old nintendo games, not like the "crap games" that come out in droves for the modern systems, right?

I loved the Ninja Turtles game growing up, and decided to play it today... Ninja Turtles is a prime example of the way things just aren't done in games anymore... This game is hard. Basically, the only way to beat it is to exploit GLITCHES in the game. Things are set up so that it is literally impossible for you to escape getting hurt in some places... So, it becomes a psychotic game of chess, except you only have 4 pieces to lose... And the only way it is possible to win is to, essentially, cheat, or if you don't want to phrase it that way, to grossly abuse the system. Hmm...

This idea of enemies respawning as soon as you leave the screen... I'm glad you don't really see that anymore... I can't imagine how difficult, say, Secret of Mana would have been if the enemies returned every time you scrolled past them... The problem with Ninja turtles is that's exactly what happens, and in some cases, they move too fast to kill as they're coming at you, so either you let yourself get hit, or when you turn to face them, you get ANOTHER ONE of whatever is chasing after you and you get hit twice...

Now, games like Mario will always be classics, but I'm honestly very glad that games aren't this frustrating anymore... Games like castlevania, ninja turtles, ninja gaiden, and a number of other early games tested the patience of their players... I failed that test numerous times... I'm very thankfull for difficulty settings, now... I'll learn the games slowly, and not have to be infuriated by it because it was built badly... YES, I said BADLY... Enemies that respawn as soon as you scroll away is a BAD DESIGN plain and simple... If games are difficult, it should be for you needing to figure out something logical, rather than trying to exploit bugs as the only way of beating it... No, I'm actually happy that games have come a while since then.

And, no I didn't beat ninja turtles (the first one, on the NES, not the one based on the arcade game, which is basically just a button masher)... I got to the Technodrome and used up my continues trying to get down a cooridoor that was flooded with these backpack guys that took 4 hits with donatelo's staff and took 2-3 points off your life every time they hit you, and would often play catch with you if you tried to barrel through them... (oldschool gamers should know what i"m talking about... Games of catch should NEVER happen in modern games)

Thank GOD for improvements in video games... Remember your roots, but be glad you're past them...

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I want the old-school rpgs back TToTT Final Fantasy 4 and 6 anybody?

[Tommy]

I think my favorite period of Gaming for RPGs specifically was the PS1 era.
FF7, FF8, and FF9 was my alltime favorite period of FFs. FF4 and FF6 are good games as well as FF10, but these three were my faves.

Games like Brave Fence Musashi, the original MGS.

While I do like the old gen games, 8/10 were sidescrollers.

[Myoti]

My gosh, Bob, you took the words right out of mouth. Thank you!

Yes, while many of these games can be considered "classics," it's annoying to hear so many claim they were so much "better" than what we have today. Frankly, I don't consider a game "better" if the only one to beat it, as said, was to exploit glitches and/or Save States on Emulators.

Castlevania. Great game, somehow loved the sort of "simplistic" feel it has now.
But it's just too. Freakin'. Hard.
Jumping through staircases, anyone?

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I disagree with some mentioned statements. Some games are improving, but some are declining. A good example would be the first person shooter area. Tons of FPSes are just improving and improving (most thanks go to ValvE)

The rpgs are debatable, but I'm seriously dissapointed with current RPGs. I hardly find them "improvements" at all. I'm not going to pass my "rpg past" because the past rpgs are better than the present ones. I don't care about flashy 3d animation or voices. I just want a game to be fun. FF6 is a great example. Chrono Trigger is another. Then look at Chrono Cross, riiight *rolls eyes*

RPGs are seriously declining. There are some good recent ones, but for the most part I think they are declining. Sure there were also some bad ones back then, but overall, current rpgs suck.

[Nate]

I disagree with the notion that current RPGs suck. Like other people who remember "the golden days" of gaming, you just remember the good RPGs and either didn't play or have purposely forgotten all the horrible RPGs that existed back then. RPGs haven't suddenly started to suck.

Yes, some of the greatest RPGs existed in the past. Dragon Quest III is a great one, so is Chrono Trigger, so is FFIV. But I can name just as many supremely excellent RPGs on current systems. Dragon Quest VIII. Final Fantasy X. Xenosaga Episode I. Megaman X Command Mission. Skies of Arcadia. Wild ARMs 3.

There's many more, and if you want to throw the PS1 games into the mix, the list gets even longer. No, RPGs are not getting worse, not by a long shot. And while I think that Chrono Cross was a poor excuse for a Chrono game, it was by no means a bad game. It was actually a very good game.

Like I said before, it's just nostalgia. I'm not denying some past RPGs are better than some present RPGs. Chrono Trigger remains the greatest RPG of all time, despite it being on the SNES. Just like how lots of players consider Super Mario Bros. 3 to be the best Mario game, even though it was on the NES. It's all a matter of taste, but by no means are RPGs of today worse than the RPGs of the past, and they're not necessarily better either. Each generation has its strong and weak points.

[Seppuku]

I agree with Smartypants, some games are just being rushed out with no creativity and use graphics as a sell point. i prefere more originality and fun gameplay over fancy stuff anyday.
^ - ^ and it does seem that 1st persons can only go up from here! ^ o ^ Vaaallllvveeee POWER!!!!

[KBMaster]

I wholeheartedly agree with old games being too hard. I played Ocarina of Time and loved the Zelda series, so I gave Oracle of Ages a try. MY TEN YEAR OLD BROTHER HAS GOTTEN FARTHER THAN I HAVE! I just can't figure it out! While I dislike easy games, I also hate games that'll frustrate me and cause me to chuck my controller at the nearest person.

[uc pseudonym]

I don't mind difficult games, but not when the difficulty is such that the only way to beat them is insane repetition. That isn't really skill, at least not in any sense that I value. Or consider Dragon Quest I: if you started the game strong enough to fight all the enemies it would take only a few hours to beat at most. The only reason it lasts long enough is because the enemies become far stronger over every single bridge.

As for modern RPGs, I have this to say: it is most important to compare old to new in areas that have little to do with technology, such as leveling systems or story. In the former category, I think things are about the same overall. I like Final Fantasy IV's leveling system quite a bit, but I thought FFX had an excellent one as well. This applies to other roleplaying games as well, but the FF series is an easy one to use.

But in terms of story, I would have to say that games (specifically RPGs) are improving. There is no reason that older games couldn't have had some more character development or at least attempt a few plot twists, but for the most part they didn't. I feel this is one area in which the field is evolving, and I think this is a very good thing.

[Myoti]

KBMaster just summed up why I have yet to beat Zelda II for NES.

The rpgs are debatable, but I'm seriously dissapointed with current RPGs. I hardly find them "improvements" at all. I'm not going to pass my "rpg past" because the past rpgs are better than the present ones. I don't care about flashy 3d animation or voices. I just want a game to be fun. FF6 is a great example. Chrono Trigger is another. Then look at Chrono Cross, riiight *rolls eyes*

Chrono Trigger and Mario RPG were two of the best SNES RPGs I've played. Doesn't mean they can't be improved. Like today, we have Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga which is a great game NOT because it has some super-complex stat/magic system, but because it was fun.

There are many game remakes I enjoy much more than the original, the prime example being FF: Souls of Rebirth. I never got very far in the original FFI and II, but playing the GBA remake rekindled my liking for (though I actaully spent more time listening to the music than anything >.> ).

Everything created exists to be improved, but some seem so caught up in "nostalgia" that they can't accept change.

[Tommy]

-EDIT-

[Tommy]

I think RPGs have improved vastly since the Chrono Trigger/ Final Fantasy 6 days.

The stories are more epic, the character devlopement is usually a lot better in PS2 RPGs for games like the ones Kae mentioned. In some cases it's not, but for the most part it has.

Games like Dragon Quest VIII and WILD ARMs, have an old school feeling to them. I can't explain how they do, unfortunately, I just feel like I'm playing an old school RPG with updated grpahics when I play those games.

(I can't say Xenosaga Episode I was an excellent game. Good, but not excellent.)

I have to say the "Golden Era" for RPGs was the PS1 days.

[Shinja]

well i also own ninja turtles, and have been wanting to play it again recently, but i dont have any nes controlers anymore, i remeber it being hard but beatable, and i must have played it a millon times. in my view the old games are just as good as the new ones, there were plenty of bad games for the nes and genisis but you only tend to remeber the good ones, but it is true that today game companies are pushing out games based allmost soley on graphics (*cough* hl2*cough*) most of them are an enjoyable play, but because thier not game-play driven they tend to suffer in replay value, which when you looking at a 60+ dollar investment that can really leave you severly disapointed.

plus i think one thing that made all those game so great back then was the originality they had, games have been chugging along for 40 years now, its all been done over and over again, and most companies struggle with blending the 2 pillars of video games, graphics and playability.

[Bobtheduck]

That's just it... Ninja Turtles was one of the good games, but it had some major problems that are much more rare in current games... That's what I'm happy about...

Crappy games have been a problem in every era since the atari was released... I mean, the originals (Pong, Breakout, Pacman, Space Invaders) were all awesome, but when there was a push to create more games (the atari, the colecovision, the sega system that's name escapes me, no not the master system) that's when the crap started flowing... So there has never really been a time in games where there weren't crap games... It isn't like "games today lack originality" it's that unoriginality and unfun games have plagued the industry from the beginning.

[MasterDias]

Yeah, we always hear about all of the old "classics," but we rarely hear about all the really bad games they came out with. I basically agree with many of the comments already made.
As the game developers gained more experience over the years, the games they produced were more polished.

As far as current RPGs go, Square-Enix seems hesitant to take any risks however in this current generation, compared to the PS years where all of these original games were coming out.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I'm not disagreeing with you nate. I don't think many current RPGs are bad. But they don't seem to have the same "epic" feel as some of the older RPGs do. Maybe because they incorporate new things (Final Fantasy 12 is an example) I am not saying adding new things is bad, but I'm not a big fan of it.

And even if TMNT was a broken game, there are some broken games today (Big Rigs anyone?)

[Myoti]

If we're saying epic, I'd argue both FF8 and 9 to be far more "epic" than 6 was, yes, partially due to the cutscenes, which wasn't possible on the older games (though the remake of 6 did have them).

Personally, I found the battle between the two Gardens in 8 to be more epic than anything I did in the older games. :/

[Radical Dreamer]

Ahahahaha, I gave up on TMNT 1 the first time I played it. XD TMNT 2 and 3 with multiplayer and the ^ v < > B A Select Start infinite life code FTW. XD

The rpgs are debatable, but I'm seriously dissapointed with current RPGs. I hardly find them "improvements" at all. I'm not going to pass my "rpg past" because the past rpgs are better than the present ones. I don't care about flashy 3d animation or voices. I just want a game to be fun. FF6 is a great example. Chrono Trigger is another. Then look at Chrono Cross, riiight *rolls eyes*

Hmmm...In my opinion, Chrono Cross was an excellent RPG, and it remains my all-time favorite game. But see, here's what I think. Everyone says that graphics don't matter in the game]does[/i] have good graphics. You say that you love the games with 8-16 bit graphics, but why? Is it because it's got a good story, intriguing characters, and well-thought out gameplay? Because I can think of plenty of games made after the Playstation that share those qualities and have good graphics, too. I'm not sure if any of this is making sense (XD; ), but I think Myoti kind of summed it up when he said the following:

Everything created exists to be improved, but some seem so caught up in "nostalgia" that they can't accept change.

So yeah. If graphics don't matter, then play the more recent games for the same reasons that you play FF4 and 6--for actual quality. It's certainly there, you just can't let your idea of "good or bad graphics" get in the way.

[the_lizardqueen]

*Shudders* I remember the first TMNT game, many an hour of my early years was spent trying to beat it.

What makes NES games even more diabolically hard in hindsight is the fact that many of current generation of gamers started out playing them little kids. I think I was about seven or eight-years-old back in the day when TMNT was kicking my gaming butt. I seem to recall the underwater swimming level at the dam being the part where my family got totally stuck, didn't it have a time limit with explosives? Just to add to the difficultly 9_9

[uc pseudonym]

Though in terms of difficulty, Battletoads probably ranks fairly highly. Some of those levels require near perfection to survive, and you have to beat all of them in one sitting. To me, difficulty exists so that the game is not boring, but it doesn't have inherent value (rephrased: it should be balanced but more is not better). Anyone can make a hard game - just make everything move fast and kill you instantly. The other elements are the ones that provide real quality.

If we're saying epic, I'd argue both FF8 and 9 to be far more "epic" than 6 was, yes, partially due to the cutscenes, which wasn't possible on the older games (though the remake of 6 did have them).

I personally think this is scattered throughout the series fairly evenly. Sure, there are plenty of epic moments in the recent games, but I was equally struck by older moments such as when Galuf fights Exdeath (FFV).

[quote="Radical Dreamer"]Everyone says that graphics don't matter in the game]
My thoughts on this vary somewhat. I do like it when a game has good graphics when they are used well, be they smooth animations or beautiful landscapes. But I also think it is ridiculous to apply today's standards to previous games as if this proves they are better (no one says Super Mario was a terrible game because it had poor graphics). Therefore, while I like to focus on the most important characteristics such as gameplay, I also consider how the game looks.

[Link Antilles]

I have fond memories of the old days, but I am quite glad we are past that. Do not get me wrong, I'll still go back and play certain old games. However, if you gave me the choice between a classic SNES RPG or Elder Scroll IV: Oblivion.... I'd go with Oblivion. There are just so many options at your finger tips and the presentation is unbeatable.

On the subject of difficulty.... goodness, some of those NES games required some dedication and patience. Like Zelda.... you totally had no map! -Heh, I actually got a piece of grid paper out on my first time playing. And you can't forget Metroid.... the instruction booklet really told you nothing and those continue codes were insane. Of course, I have seen the agrument made that games are too easy. No challenge. I disagree, they *can* be a lot easier. In most cases, it's your choice on the difficulty level.

So, yeah, I am really happy games have changed.... you now have many options and much more freedom given to you.

[Azier the Swordsman]

I love games. I love modern games and retro games. And I don't for a second believe games are getting "worse." I believe they are getting better.

Not to say old games were bad. I feel each generation has had it's own strong points.

NES: Sure the games are very hard, but I actually enjoy challenging games. True, I exploit '99 lives' or 'infinite continues' cheats wherever possible, but I enjoy these games because they genuinly challenge my skill. That said, I love Battletoads.

Sure, the game is hard as all get out, but I never really felt the game was ever 'unfair' while playing through it. Every level can be beaten once the proper skill and practice is obtained, though you do have to die about 200 times per level before this happens.

The NES is also the birthplace of many of my all time favorite series'.

Oh, and the best RPG's for the Nintendo are not Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy or Mother. It was a series of Dragonball Z RPG's that never was released in America. Today, I would say the series still stands out as one of the top 5 most insanely fun battle systems ever.

On modern games, I would have to say I still manage to find a ton of stuff that I'm truly enjoying. If games are supposed to be getting worse, I'm just not seeing it. If you can look at Final Fantasy X, Resident Evil 4, Wild Arms 3, Kingdom Hearts 2, Ratchet and Clank, Metal Gear Solid 3, Devil May Cry, the upcoming Zelda, Metroid Prime, and Dragon Quest VII and say games are worse than before, you need to get your mentality checked.

[Myoti]

Anyone who thinks games are getting "too easy" should go play Ikaruga. I will stand by and videotape myself laughing at them.

I personally think this is scattered throughout the series fairly evenly. Sure, there are plenty of epic moments in the recent games, but I was equally struck by older moments such as when Galuf fights Exdeath (FFV).

True, each one did have quite a few moments such as that (I'm at least glad to find someone else who seems to have liked FFV somewhat).

I love games. I love modern games and retro games. And I don't for a second believe games are getting "worse." I believe they are getting better.

As I said, things exist to be better. Nothing in our world can ever be "perfect," as there's always something else that could be able to, and for the good of the future should, top it. People use to think little buggie-cars that could go 10 MPH were the best thing ever, and look where we are now, AND where we're going.

Oh, and the best RPG's for the Nintendo are not Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy or Mother. It was a series of Dragonball Z RPG's that never was released in America. Today, I would say the series still stands out as one of the top 5 most insanely fun battle systems ever.

I've seen those somewhere. I'll have to try it out now. o.o


Oh, and another slight comment. I love all those great games as much as everyone else does: Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, all of Nintendo's greatest titles, etc., but I feel that if I don't at least aim to be better than all of them, then there isn't much of a point in getting into the gaming industry (despite what some certain other companies might try to think).

[Nate]

I tend to agree with Myoti. As far as epic, well-thought out plot lines go, the games of today far exceed those of earlier eras. Take for example, Final Fantasy. Though not a bad game by any stretch (it was actually a very good game), the characters were non-existant, had no personalities, there were pretty much no plot twists (aside from the identity of the final boss). Even FFIV, my favorite old school Final Fantasy game, had very little in the way of epic events occuring.

In fact, aside from Chrono Trigger, FFVI, and Star Ocean, I can't think of any old school RPGs that have epic storylines. I can think of a plethora of them from the current generation, however. The reason for this is simple. Video game storage mediums these days hold a lot more than they did back then. Star Ocean for the Super Famicom had 48 megs of compressed data in the cartridge...the absolute limit for the cartridge. In fact, Star Ocean shares the honor of using every available speck of memory on the cartridge with only one other game, Tales of Phantasia.

Then look at Star Ocean 2 for the Playstation, and see how even MORE epic the use of better quality music and the vast amount of storage space made what was once great, even better.

[Tommy]

Excellent example, kaemmerite. Star Ocean. I was about to make a post explaining how RPGs these days may lack the original style of RPGs, but they now have clearer character devlopement, more epic plots, ect.

They still make RPGs that are old school style and maintain PS2 graphics. For example, in my opinion Dragon Quest VIII has :

-A Stale Plot
-Weak Character developement
-A plain battle system

But it is still a good game. Why? It's an old-school styled RPG and games like FF5 were awesome, but they suffered in those categories, but no one cared because they had nothing to compare it to.

I personally think, for the time, Chrono Trigger had a moving epic plot but failed in comparison to FF6 in epicness. However, Chrono Trigger istelf was afar better game and now FF6 and Chrono Trigger in my eyes mantain a weak story compared to later games, but they are still classics that I will always enjoy.

[uc pseudonym]

Oh, and the best RPG's for the Nintendo are not Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy or Mother. It was a series of Dragonball Z RPG's that never was released in America. Today, I would say the series still stands out as one of the top 5 most insanely fun battle systems ever.

I would like to know what DBZ rpgs you are playing. I've played many of those games that weren't released in America and even beat one, but I didn't find many of them that great in terms of quality or simple enjoyment. Can you give titles?

True, each one did have quite a few moments such as that (I'm at least glad to find someone else who seems to have liked FFV somewhat).

Somewhat? Actually, I'd make a case for FFV being one of the best games in the series. I was surprised how many elements from it are used in later games, and unless those were done in FFIV (the only game in the series I don't know much about) that makes the game very innovative. Though it requires a bit too much leveling for my taste, its character development system is interesting and the game is fun overall. It has a pretty good storyline, as well. Spoilers for that game, if anyone cares:
[spoiler=Final Fantasy V]I've seen some people say that FFVI is great because the entire world changes during the game. That's good, but not the first in the series. FFV does that... twice.

Or people praise FFVII for having a main character die. FFV does that too, though you don't completely lose that person's stats. I personally think that scene (especially the dialogue during the fight) is very touching, even given the dated technology.

The game is certainly far from perfect (characterization is especially weak, though everyone has at least some development, unlike many of the minor characters in FFVI). But I think it is much stronger than many people realize.[/spoiler]

[Myoti]

Oh. I said "somewhat" as I wasn't sure what your opinion on FFV was. I actually think the same, but I've heard so many shoot it down for some reason that I wasn't sure what you thought it.
Actually, I think that's the only SNES FF I'd like to go back and play sometime. Go figure.

I personally think, for the time, Chrono Trigger had a moving epic plot but failed in comparison to FF6 in epicness.

Um, sorry, but I don't see that. I found traveling across time and battling a massive alien beast (with a rather impressive scene in the final battle) to have been far more "epic" than hunting down your party members and taking out Kefka in another world (FFVI = character overload, though I suppose I can give it props for trying to do well with them).

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Um, sorry, but I don't see that. I found traveling across time and battling a massive alien beast (with a rather impressive scene in the final battle) to have been far more "epic" than hunting down your party members and taking out Kefka in another world (FFVI = character overload, though I suppose I can give it props for trying to do well with them).

I totally see it. Final Fantasy was about rebellion against an empire. Kind of like Star Wars. How a small group went against an entire empire, and won. Chrono Trigger was about a small band of people who saves the world from Lavos.

I find that far more epic. I also felt that FF6 had a lot more character development than Chrono Trigger. It's kind of like the tv show Lost.

And besides, the last fight in FF6, you can have 12 people fight in the last battle (not at once. Groups of 4) And the last few bosses are huge. The 3 Goddess statues + The long nonstop flow of bosses you had to fight + Kefka himself > Lavos and his few forms where he changed into different beasts. Plus the final form was kind of dissapointing. It was this little small scrawny alien dude with 2 hovering pots.

If we're saying epic, I'd argue both FF8 and 9 to be far more "epic" than 6 was, yes, partially due to the cutscenes, which wasn't possible on the older games (though the remake of 6 did have them).

1. It wasn't a remake. It was a direct port with a few alterations. Mainly sound.

2. I see 6 as more epic. With a more engrossing storyline and a better feeling of "zohemgee what was freaken mindblowing"

[Myoti]

It was this little small scrawny alien dude with 2 hovering pots.

Funny. I found the fact that it WASN'T some massive Angel-like being for once to be quite refreshing and unique (including the fact that the alien 'dude' was not the actual boss). That, and just watching the background (to have been made on the SNES) was incredible.

Somehow, having all those characters in FFVI battle against a long line of non-moving bosses just didn't seem as much fun to me...

I find that far more epic. I also felt that FF6 had a lot more character development than Chrono Trigger.

I think you guys misunderstand the meaning of the word 'epic.'
'Epic' doesn't have to have a bunch of character development (though I'm all for it being there). Beowulf and the Odyssey are considered to be the original epics and have pretty much no character development.

[Radical Dreamer]

Funny. I found the fact that it WASN'T some massive Angel-like being for once to be quite refreshing and unique (including the fact that the alien 'dude' was not the actual boss). That, and just watching the background (to have been made on the SNES) was incredible.

Somehow, having all those characters in FFVI battle against a long line of non-moving bosses just didn't seem as much fun to me...

I agree. I also think that Trigger has a ton going for it in the way of epic battles and the like. I mean, come on. In how many other games can you fight Magus (with that incredibly awesome music, by the way)? Or fight alongside Froggy? XD Jumping through time, going from medieval times to the far future, to the distant past...That sounds pretty epic to me.