Mars exploration

[Straylight]

Rover rolls on to Martian soil
How the space robot Spirit will explore Mars

At-a-glance
The US robotic probe that landed on Mars 10 days ago has rolled off its pad and on to the Martian surface.

The Spirit rover rolled three metres down on to the red soil of Mars; widely considered one of the riskiest steps in the US Space Agency's mission.

If all goes well, it will take part in joint experiments with US and European orbital spacecraft.

It can now embark on its mission of exploration to find evidence of water, past and present, in the Martian soil.

Confirmation of the successful manoeuvre off its landing pad was given at 1000 GMT.

More at this link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3398269.stm

In depth report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/sci_tech/2003/race_for_mars/default.stm

I love the photos... always reminds me about God's amazing sense of creativity:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/spirit/20040106a/PIA05003.jpg

[Technomancer]

Definately something I've been following; it'll be interesting to see what the mineralogical analyses turn up. Personally I don't hold out much hope for any active life on Mars given the conditions, although if some samples could be returned I think it's possible that microfossils could be found dating from when conditions were more favourable.

What I'm really waiting for though is a mission to Titan or Europa.

[cbwing0]

The Daily Show had some funny segments on the Mars landing, including an interview with one of the people who worked on the mission. I suppose this is exciting, or it will be if they produce something other than pictures of vast red deserts.

[Shinja]

eh space is a complete waste of money. i hate the idea i pay taxes to send a toy car to mars. and i sinecarly hope we dont go to the moon.

[Technomancer]

Did anyone see the PBS show on the construction of the lander? I think it was on NOVA or something- they've got some really cool engineering going on (and had to a lot of troubleshooting).

[Fsiphskilm]

[quote="Shinja"]eh space is a com

[cbwing0]

I agree with Cephas that there is some merit to space exploration, even though we may not be able to do a great deal with the data right now; and, if I may use a cliche, "if we don't somebody else will." It is important that we (as a nation) remain on the forefront of such research, for the previously stated reasons. Granted, it will probably add to the national debt, but that would be true no matter which president was in office at the time, and it is not terribly troubling (I will limit my political commentary to that).

On the other hand...I like his appraoch to the moon. It's the closest to us...Eventually We're going to "crap" (If I may say) On our Earth to the point where we're going to live on other planets like on Cowboy Bebop. I'm looking forward to it But Not being able to witness the beauty of God Created Earth, will depress me for many years to come...

That is far from certain, especially in your lifetime. If it did come to that within the next 40-60 years, we would probably be finished as a species.

[Fsiphskilm]

[quote="Technomancer"]Did anyone

[Technomancer]

Really it was just a bunch of people having fun doing what they love to do...

And that's really what the spirit of research should be- free and open. Talk to any grad student or professor about their work and they should be able to talk your ears off about it.

Anyways, I think we have learned an incredible amount already from space science and space exploration, information that we could not have gained any other way. Probes like Cassini or Spirit don't just send back pretty pictures- they send back hard data on the chemistry and physics which does get used. From what we've done so far we've already learned a lot about the makeup and origins of the solar system (and by extension, ourselves also).

Aside from simply pushing back the frontiers of human knowledge (valuable in its own right), some of what is learned may be of practical significance in the future. We really can't say what will and what won't very easily, although there are areas of space science that are of immediate importance right now. When it comes to this, I've always like James Clerk Maxwell's response to one Victorian matron who asked about the use of his own work. "Madam" he replied, "of what use is a newborn child?". And of course Maxwell's work, though seemingly esoteric to some, would become singularly important in the modern world.

PS. By way of comparison: NASA's total budget is about $15.5 billion. The DOD's budget for space projects is ~$20 billion, to say nothing of its other activities.

[Bobtheduck]

'Cept their free was at our debt... I don't like the whole space exploration thing either... I still support the president for the most part, but my opinion of him is waning... (I say that because he wants to restart the space race...)

[Technomancer]

Er..I didn't mean free as in no charge, but free as in having liberty to exlpore the problem. The work done on the Mars Rover will likely contribute significantly to advances in robotics and autonomous veihicles, as well sensor technology. All of these will have spinoffs in the market.

[Michael]

I'm for space exploration. If God is going to let us, then we should find out more about the universe we live in. It's true what Techno said, the information could be useful in the future.

This is getting off topic though.

Landing on Mars? All right, let's see what we learn this time around. I'm kind of hoping they'll send a probe past the heliopause, but I'm not sure if they can.

[Shinja]

well all i see nasa doing outside of loking for proof for thier " there is no God religion", is developing equipment that is only used for the military. i would love the space program if it wasnt conected with the government, i think it should be privatly funded.

[cbwing0]

i would love the space program if it wasnt conected with the government, i think it should be privatly funded.

That would be a good idea...if we wanted to kill the space program. The problem with this is that space exploration is not profitable in the short term (huge initial costs, with uncertain payoff), so it isn't suited to control by private companies. Perhaps if space travel ever becomes advanced enough that citizens can travel to space in large numbers, companies could make money by building commercial space vehicles, or taking people on trips into space.

[Technomancer]

well all i see nasa doing outside of loking for proof for thier " there is no God religion", is developing equipment that is only used for the military. i would love the space program if it wasnt conected with the government, i think it should be privatly funded.

*sigh* Why is it that you see science being done and think atheism? Many, many people of various Christian denominations (and other faiths!) have no problem with it. The Big Bang theory was first worked out by a Catholic priest for heaven's sakes! We learn about God, and ourselves by studying His creation.

This is precisely what I meant when I said earlier of the need for freedom in research. Science cannot truly flourish if subjected to religious or political ovesight seeking "correctness" of opinion. Science has much to offer religion (and vice vesa), but it must also be autonomous, in keeping with the idea of "separate but overlapping magisteria".

edit: speaking of interference:
[url]http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/wonews/oct03/1003ofac.html
[/url]


Anyways, cbwing is right- there is no reason for private companies to be involved at the current time, because there is no reasonable hope of a near-term profit. Corporations as a whole don't do fundamental research, which is why the government has to be involved. This is the same in physics, biology, and other fields as well.

[Shinja]

*sigh* Why is it that you see science being done and think atheism? Many, many people of various Christian denominations (and other faiths!) have no problem with it. The Big Bang theory was first worked out by a Catholic priest for heaven's sakes! We learn about God, and ourselves by studying His creation.

sorry, every probe sent to mars in my life time has been in the search of life while not a bad thing, i have never heard nasa, or any other space agency that is loking for life ever metion God, or any creation, it is always interpeted through the eyes of evolution. and just because many christians see no problem with it doesnt change my point of view, there are many "christians" who believe many things that contrdict my faith, and beliefs. my beef is not with science in general, it is with the additudes of many involved with the seeking of life. those who say people were not created by God but rather by dirtty space snowballs, or marsian merierites. it is not that i beleve they are athiest, they have a god that they will not admit, and that is thier science.

by going to the moon, we acomplised nothing, if the government wants to spend billions of dollars, they can give it to the poor, or they can use it help people start new jobs though tax cuts, or they could give it back to those who earned it. but you'll never see that happen, cause those things never happen. each day we lose a bit of freedom, a bit of liberty, cause we want things we dont need.

[cbwing0]

by going to the moon, we acomplised nothing, if the government wants to spend billions of dollars, they can give it to the poor, or they can use it help people start new jobs though tax cuts, or they could give it back to those who earned it. but you'll never see that happen, cause those things never happen. each day we lose a bit of freedom, a bit of liberty, cause we want things we dont need.

The "poor" get quite enough as it is (I am not a big fan of the welfare state); and, as I said, there are many humanitarian organizations, but only the government has the means for space exploration. They could give it back to those who earned it. Maybe that is right, but I like to believe that we can do greater things when we pool our resources. Maybe I will think differently when I have a real job and have to pay lots of taxes.

As for the bit about science, I'll leave that to the resident scientist, Techno. :p

[madphilb]

I'd much rather my US tax dollars go toward military design or the space program... Volt mentioed (I think) an 80 Billion dollar debt, Techno listed 20 Bil. for military and 15.5 bil for NASA.... it's all the other money the government wastes that bothers me.

Welfare is such a messed up system (and bogged down under it's own lack of efficency) that we could turn around and give EVERY person in this country something like $7000 a year with the money that's put into the system now (one that barely helps those who really need it).

This forum runs on a backbone that was a US Military venture... a design to keep lines of communication open in the event of part of the country becomming toast. GPS systems that allow people to better navigate the roads and the ocean, as well as hundreds of different life-saving applications came from a military design.

In the end the money dumped into NASA will come back as innovations in the private sector. The concept of living in space is a very real solution to overcrowding on this planet, and quite possibly techniques created to keep people living in those areas could lead to better ways of growing food here on tera-firma.

As for the search for life on Mars, I don't see how them finding the life they're looking for would disprove anything... and even scientists often don't have an answer for where the "mass" that "banged" in the Big Bang theory came from... it's all speculation to a point... a limited observation from afar.

The reasoning that "that money could be used for" can go for every one of us... video games, Anime, DVDs, etc.... the Billions that we spend on those every year could feed lots of people, keep them clothed, etc... heck, even the internet or our computers aren't really necessary when it comes down to it... but life is more than just the necessities.... it's our creative nature that shows off some of God's greatest work... us.

All that said....


I should go find me the link to the NASA pages for this project... I'd like to see some of the photos that have come back (aside from those that I've seen on TV, etc.)

[Shinja]

i was not staeting welfare is right i actully hate welfare, but billions for space is to me just as much of a waste.

you bring up a great many points of the benifits of military achievement in accociation with nasa, many things we take for granted today have come from the military, war breeds technology, but the ends never justifies the means.

>The reasoning that "that money could be used for" can go for every one of us... video games, Anime, DVDs, etc.... the Billions that we spend on those every year could feed lots of people, keep them clothed, etc... heck, even the internet or our computers aren't really necessary when it comes down to it... but life is more than just the necessities.... it's our creative nature that shows off some of God's greatest work... us.

yes but there is a differance between private industry and the government, the point about spending all hinges on whos doing the spending. the central government is already far too big, and wastes enough of our tax dollars as it is. its not thier money its ours, yet we had no chioce in starting nasa in the first place, its taxation without represintation, and unconstitutional.

[Technomancer]

But what NASA spends is fiddling small change compared to the military, or the recent tax cuts in your country.

my beef is not with science in general, it is with the additudes of many involved with the seeking of life. those who say people were not created by God but rather by dirtty space snowballs, or marsian merierites. it is not that i beleve they are athiest, they have a god that they will not admit, and that is thier science.

by going to the moon, we acomplised nothing, if the government wants to spend billions of dollars, they can give it to the poor, or they can use it help people start new jobs though tax cuts, or they could give it back to those who earned it. but you'll never see that happen, cause those things never happen. each day we lose a bit of freedom, a bit of liberty, cause we want things we dont need.

The thing is science can't say anything about the existence/non-existence of God. He is fundamentally outside of its bounds, since he is not part of the physical universe. What science can do, and do well, is describe the physical structure of that universe and its history. All it can do is make observations, form theories based on the material evidence, and then test them. We assume only that material objects are affected by material causes, whether these in themselves may be described as secondary causes in the theological sense is unknowable in any objective fashion. Which is why there can no more be a "Christian" science than a Hindu or Marxist* one.


*Some one did try this once in the 1930's, and it became a political orthodoxt in the Soviet Union. It was also an abject failure that set Soviet genetic science back decades. All mention of Mendelian genetics was excised since it was not felt to be in agreement with "Dialectical Materialism".

Urg. I should get back to work, am reading "Physical Modelling using Digital Waveguides"

[Shinja]

i agree, we shouldnt be spending near what we are on the military but that is another topic not in disgution. one cannot be justified by the other.

[Straylight]

There are many more scientifically important things to do that space exploration, like drug design, and the search for the ultimate eco friendly renewable resource. However the full significance of discoveries made during spacefaring may dawn later.

Eg. The pursuit of quantum physics - the quantum physicist is a typical "curiousity" scientist, unlike the parmaceutical scientist who has curiousity as a virtue, and uses this to drive towards preset goals that have a clear practical use in the real world. The quantum physicist's work has provided us with some awesome medical analaysis tools. Without this research, healthcare would be a long way behind what we see today.

Oh, and I think that science should always have a high budget IMO, because it can help to solve a lot of the world's problems (but notably, it creates a fair number too - the nuke and h-bomb should never had been invented).

[righteous_slave]

A. I throw my hat in with the "we have much better things to spend money on than going to Mars or the Moon"
B. NASA and others are always searching the moon, Mars, comets, meterorites and everthing else in a constant search for some proof of life or former life or building blocks of life so as to disprove creationinsm. Have you ever heard any report on these projects that didn't mention that whatever it was did not find any evidence of life?
C. The present welfare system is severley broken, severely abused by people who simply do not want to work, and severely denies many who seriously need help, financialy, educationally, and employment wise. I don't know how to fix it, but it doesn't take a mechanic to tell you you're car don't run.

Does that cover all the topics so far

[Fsiphskilm]

"Spirit" Okay that is such a FF

[Lochaber Axe]

I know it would be best not to do this, forgive me, but I do need to tell you two stories:

I have thought considerably on the moralty of the nuclear bomb or nuclear energy at that. I will stick to the bomb. Here is a what-if situation: September 1945, US forces began the invasion of the home islands of the waining Japanese empire. Under the code of Bushido and the belief in the Divine Emperor, the Japanese people began to defend their land with their lives. First the beach heads are cleared with the loss of thousands of our boys, 10 times as bad as D-day. Through subsequent weeks, the Japanese defenses start to crumble, and then Hirohito summons his people to fight for him and Japan. Millions of civilians (man, woman, and child) take up arms against us. The bloodiest battles humanly possible occur daily until the combined Allied forces kill Hirohito and utterly destroy Japan. The amounting cost of human lives reaches 50 million more or less of both sides combined.

Uncountable amount of Japanese civilian deaths compared to 200,000 by the A-bomb. The loss of an entire people and culture to the destruction of two cities.

April 1962, Growing tensions between Soviet Union and America over the recreation through the survivors of WWII of Japan and the annexation of hundreds of countries into USSR, turns into a fire fight. WWIII begins only a few decades after the first. Soviet forces invade through Alaska wiping out our forces there and then preceding along the coast taking San Fransisco other coastal cities and building a power base over all the West past the Rocky Mountains. Hundreds of battles occur along the Midwest in effects of Soviet and Allied forces fight to dislodge each other into the oceans. In 1982 the Allied forces succeed in destroying Pacific Coastal cities through Naval engagements and the last forces on North America either flee back to the Old World or are captured. This is a hopeful look of the war. World War 3 without the atomic bomb would become hemispherical. The New World of North and South America against the combined populations of the Old under Soviet rule. Sheer probabililty says that there is a good chance we would lose and the Earth (as the communist always dream of) becomes a world wide Communist state.

Without the Atomic bomb, either you don't exist because your grandparents or parents were killed, or that you are now a Communist. You should think about this for a little bit.

Edit: Hmmm... maybe I should not leave it like this. Okay, the rationale that NASA should not exist or whatever is not important because it all ends up paradoxical. The above situations are paradoxical, the ability of destroying the world 20 times or the defense of a possibility of the above. It is a never-ending cycle. Think on what I have said and comment little. Just think about it.

[Technomancer]

B. NASA and others are always searching the moon, Mars, comets, meterorites and everthing else in a constant search for some proof of life or former life or building blocks of life so as to disprove creationinsm. Have you ever heard any report on these projects that didn't mention that whatever it was did not find any evidence of life?

The only probe that was really looking for signs of life was Viking. The other probes have concentrated on compositional/mineralogical studies or orbital imaging. However, what we have found are some of the building blocks of life, various organic molecules including some amino acids. What this tells us about is the possible make-up of the early solar system.

[Michael]

<Eg. The pursuit of quantum physics - the quantum physicist is a typical "curiousity" scientist, unlike the parmaceutical scientist who has curiousity as a virtue, and uses this to drive towards preset goals that have a clear practical use in the real world. The quantum physicist's work has provided us with some awesome medical analaysis tools. Without this research, healthcare would be a long way behind what we see today.>

Isn't qauntum physics the study of alternate realities? Or is that qauntum mechanics?

<Let's stick to the discussion about the probe, you guys.>

Yeah, let's.

[JediSonic]

Spirit: Stallion of the Martians!

But what if they DID find out that there actually WAS life on Mars, but it got wiped out because the planet got too cold of them after a while, which would imply that all of the planets are slowly slipping away from the sun, which would explain the fact that the polar ice caps didn't melt when we thought they would, which means that global warming is the only thing keeping the climate in check, which means that the minute we manage to stop polluting the atmosphere, the entire world will turn into a giant popsicle! AHHH!!! RUN FOR YOU LIVES!!!

....

Umm yeah. Anyways it's kinda funny how much of this topic is talking about the United States finacial situation when Straylight (who started this thread) isn't even american! XD

[Michael]

<Umm yeah. Anyways it's kinda funny how much of this topic is talking about the United States finacial situation when Straylight (who started this thread) isn't even american! XD>

LOL! That's so funny, because it's so true!

[cbwing0]

Is there any more to say about this other than a couple more people throwing out a "yeah, that's great?"