Why do elitists hate a series going mainstream?

[rocklobster]

It seems like every time an anime goes mainstream, those who were once fans of it automatically denounce it and say that they hate it. Look at Naruto, DBZ, Inuyasha, et al. Why can't elitists be happy more people might join the ranks of otakus everywhere? Or is it they just can't stand their favorite program being on the same network that carries Ed, Edd, and Eddy

[Mr. SmartyPants]

You got a good point there. I was annoyed by Naruto comming to the states

I guess because "elitists" think that little kids will be running around going "I AM NAHH-ROO-TOWE!" or something.... Or because they will be all "bah... you're on episode 7? I'm on episode 160!" or something

Or maybe its the dubbing?

[Puritan]

Part of it might be the (sometimes extreme) censorship which comes along with anime going mainstream. I have no problem with censorship of needless nudity or language, but I have seen censorship make anime not intended for children into kid's cartoons or censor our tobacco use because of our society, and this doesn't please me.

[bigsleepj]

I think sometimes people don't like the idea of their favourite shows being popular. Its is in some way a greedy feeling, but they basically just want it all to themselves and their friends, a sort of "inner circle" mentality. You know, they want to be part of something small and special, and the second everyone likes it then that feeling is destroyed. That may explain it.

[Tarnish]

I don't like it because it often makes the show into a mere shell of its' former self (Sailor Moon, One Piece, etc.). It also produces little kids who think they're cool because they watch FMA and Samurai Champloo. And there aren't many people who like those kids.

[RedMage]

Plain selfishness, the "inner circle" mentality that bigsleepj described? Yes, that's part of it.

Poor dubbing and censorship, leaving the series a shadow of its former self? Yes, that's a good explanation too.

Nor can the "I am Nah-Roo-Towe!" kids be dismissed. Because most of the human population are idiots, it only stands to reason that the larger a group of people becomes, the more idiots there are in the group, and having to put up with idiots can dampen one's enthusiasm for anything.

Finally, there's the issue of timing. By the time some series "go mainstream," the fandom for these shows of some people who got into them before they were "mainstream" may have simply run its course.

[Tenshi no Ai]

It's sorta nice for a while when it's an anime that you love, but no one else really knows what it is. When I first got into Inuyasha, it took a few months before it was licensed and then everyone else could share the joy of the show^^ ...Buuuut I DO find it annoying at times when it's a show you've already seen for a while and then all of a sudden forums are FLOODED with "Inuyasha rocks!" "Inuyasha is DA BEST SHOW EVA!!!!" and then all the talk is one the one show, and just gets totally overrated :/ By the time that started happening I was like not as into the show as I used to be :/ I dunno, overrated shows tend to annoy me if talked about way too often (which is why I never found interest when FMA aired on TV cause it got too overrated :/)

Good point is: now you can buy it to have for your own^^

[starwarsboy90]

I agree with Redmage there, especially about the idiots and the "Inner Circle".

[Puguni]

Well. I am a prime example of this. ^^;; Why don't I, specifically, like shows after they go mainstream? Well I can't say totally dislike. I still like Fruits Basket on some level. But anyway, I like the secrecy of it. Also, I'm not a person who'd go yelling around about how great mainstream animes are; the fact of them getting a hold of a show I liked and magnifiying it to near deification discourages me. It wasn't that great. >_> Some people also like having 'knowledge' contests. I am as happy without knowing every detail of a show I'm watching, and certainly happier without someone making me feel stupid for not knowing it. It's not the little kids I'm worried about; it's the older preteen generation. *scream*

[Hitokiri]

Meh, I don't care. What truly matters is I like that series. If kids want to lump me with a certain group just cause I watch the "this" or "that" series, I don't let msyelf worry about it. Nor do I worry about a series going mainstream. If it does, cool. If it doesn't, cool. Then again I don't really pay attention what's new or cool in the anime community.

[Myoti]

What most of ya'll said.

To me, it's sometimes a good thing. I mean, I'd probably never know about One Piece if it wasn't for 4Kids. But now that I know the truth, I fear more for what will happen (and is happening) to it, and how I have to keep putting up with people saying "Zolo", mocking Usopp, or telling the true fans there is "No such thing as Little Garden".

ARRRRGH!! >_<

[Shao Feng-Li]

I have all the manga and anime import and the fansubs coming out my ears! How dear it become popular! How dare they show it on Cartoonnetwork so that everybody might enjoy it, even cleaned up!

*ahem*

[Debitt]

I have all the manga and anime import and the fansubs coming out my ears! How dear it become popular! How dare they show it on Cartoonnetwork so that everybody might enjoy it, even cleaned up!

*ahem*

While I can totally understand the angle you're coming from, I don't think "cleaned up" is always a positive thing in the anime world. Case in point, take Shaman King - it was "cleaned up" in the worst and most horrible way possible. Characters names were changed, fights were edited, relationships were altered, "bare bums" were censored...I could go on - and while this is bad enough in itself, consider this:

Parents now think that it's OKAY for a kid to watch this series and buy the manga - because of the content seen on TV, they don't bother to check the content of the manga (for example), which is MUCH more mature than anything ever shown on Fox. I used to hang out at my brother's badminton practices, and the parents had NO idea what the actual content of SK was like, and unfortunately I had to educate them....

So while I'm all for acceptable content, I think editing should be kept to the very very very (...) very minimum so parents are aware of the original content, should they ever decide to buy their kids the DVDs or the manga.

Other examples of series that were "Too cleaned up" in my opinion: Tenchi Muyo, Outlaw Star, etc...these series were on Cartoon Network, and I think they're probably better examples than SK, but I'm more familiar with what was edited in SK.

Bottom line: If it's NOT for kids, then don't TRY to make it for kids. =/

Now more on topic regarding "elitists": I definitely subscribe to the "idiot" theory which says that the more fans a series has, the more idiots there will be.

Also, smaller communities are less intimidating, more easy to navigate, and you know where all the "ick" is. I remember when I used to know almost every Dragon Knights fanfic writer in existance; we'd regularly chat on IM, talk about the series, the characters. As the fandom grew it got filled with REALLY bad writing, and most of the good writers that I had once knew (as well as myself) left the fanfiction community - I didn't know everyone anymore, and the fandom just wasn't as fun that way, and that played a big role in my loss of interest in the series.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Finally, there's the issue of timing. By the time some series "go mainstream," the fandom for these shows of some people who got into them before they were "mainstream" may have simply run its course.

Oooo thats what happened to me with FMA and Naruto

When I was obsessed with those shows, my friends were like "whaatt? Whatever I'm going to watch my Kenshin! It's the best"

Come to today, where I'm telling them how awesome Bleach and Monster are, they're telling me "OH my gosh! Full metal alchemist and Naruto are the BEST!"

If Monster becomes released in the U.S... I won't be too sad, it's not that popular... because people aren't willing to watch something thats different and completely original for once. Everyone likes their blue-haired giant-eyed comedy or action animes.

Like I said, I certaintly wish more people would get into Monster right now. It is an amazing series that will take you 4 episodes to get you ABSOLUTELY hooked on... its a giant step from most other series plot-wise and art-wise (INCREDIBLY realistic) *hint hint*

[Myoti]

Actually, I kinda like it when new peoples get in on the fandom. It means I get to spoil stuff for 'em!

[Kami]

Bottom line: If it's NOT for kids, then don't TRY to make it for kids. =/

Now more on topic regarding "elitists": I definitely subscribe to the "idiot" theory which says that the more fans a series has, the more idiots there will be.

I totally agree with KokoroDaisuke-sama. I know I'm one of the ranters frequently seen on sites about Naruto dubs, but it is not about how... we are " elitist " or anything, but how much the show in question has been butchered or " Cleaned " up, to quote another CAA user.

I think that it is a waste that kids have to see the version of a series that has been totally revamped and has lost the meaning that the original story artist tried to convey. Naruto being a prime example. It's sad to me that kids have to see the " Kiddy " version of it, and [ In my personal opinion ] bad voice acting all over.

-Kami

[Roy Mustang]

I think one reason elitists hate a series going mainstream is because they don't want others to know about it.

Elitists will look at their hobby as their way of life, and they don't want others to join their little hobby.

Everyone should remember this. A person has to start out as a rookie in any hobby. When need to remember to respect others that just have started out in the hobby that we love.


Wingzero22

[Silent Hunter]

I think one reason elitists hate a series going mainstream is because they don't want others to know about it.

Elitists will look at their hobby as their way of life, and they don't want others to join their little hobby.

Everyone should remeber this. A person has to start out as a rookie in any hobby. When need to remember to respect others and not be hash to people that just started out in the hobby that we love.


Wingzero22

I concur.

[Arnobius]

Depends on what you mean by mainstream: On CN? On DVD? Known to exist?

So long as the the anime/manga is uncut, the translation is accurate and the original language track with good subs is available with anime, then I really couldn't care how big a fan base it has.

[Radical Dreamer]

Hmm...Well, I think there's a few ways to look at it.


On the one hand, if some anime weren't televised *coughKenshincough*, I never would have really been drawn into anime, never would have found this site, etc. Granted, I had no idea that Rurouni Kenshin was a "popular" show when I first saw it (caught it on the first episode...), and since my school is so small, there were only about three people who had watched/heard of it. These three people all happened to be my best friends. Watching Kenshin got me hooked on anime (and manga), started my search for Kenshin fansites, where I found The-Oro.com, where I was invited to CAA. So, on the one hand, mainstreamness is a good thing.

On the other hand, mainstreamness is a bad thing. Who here remembers what happened with Napoleon Dynamite? Yeah. A select few saw it and thought it was SO hilarious, and it was. Then, the entire rest of the world saw it, and it became the "ZoMg hAv U Cn NapOliOnXDyNaMITe?/??/backslash? zOmg, itz SOOOOOOOOO GOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!!!!!11111111eleventyone! im gunna go rite abot it on MYSPACE!!!" movie. It's the same with certain anime. As for FMA, I LOVE the show, but I don't really love how huge it is right now. Then again, I wouldn't be able to see it unless it were televised, so I guess I shouldn't be complaining. But, if I saw Air on CN next to Family Guy, I'd be disgusted. Or, if I saw Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha on FoxBox or WBKids, I'd be mortified. Basically, it depends. XD If the population is going to freak about a show, that'll suck. But, if the population will use their televisions and mouths wisely, we'll all be better off.

[Tenshi no Ai]

Bottom line: If it's NOT for kids, then don't TRY to make it for kids. =/

I haven't heard a quote that good in a while :/ It's so true! In the case of sexuality/extreme violence, I can see some edits, like what they do for edited movies on TV.

[Aka-chan]

Amen to everything KoDai said. Ugh, watching parents by their kids Yu-Gi-Oh manga, complete with scantily-clad and over-proportioned Anzu, guys lending each other porn, dark, malicious magic, and sick threats of very real mutilation...*groan*

Ohh, yes the fanfic sections getting overrun. The problem is also that the good writers leave the fanfic circles when the series gets too full of n00bs. So not only do you have a flood of terrible writing, but all the decent stuff stops coming to counter it. >.<

[Shao Feng-Li]

Bottom line: If it's NOT for kids, then don't TRY to make it for kids. =/

I know, I was mostly joking. XD

I don't give a care at all when something goes mainstreme... no one really should. I don't mind it being a little edited so I can enjoy it. When it looses it's originality and names are changed... that's another story. Of course then, it's not like I have to watch it if it were on TV like that. I'd just buy the DVDs if it were decent.

And while people make stupid mistakes by buying the original DVDs, just how is that our problem?

[termyt]

I've never really understood elitism - or at least why anyone would behave in such a way.

There's probably a healthy form of elitism - that is, wanting to maintain the integrity of your beloved pastime. However, such good intentions are often taken too far to the point where it is neither healthy nor valuable. Elitism will eventually degrade from maintaining integrity to maintaining purity. Not all of those who could be categorized as an "elitist" will degrade to such lengths. I prefer to think of such people not as elitists but as otaku or "good fans."

If you consider yourself an elitist based on your knowledge, love and desire for maintaining anime as the original creators intended it, I ask you not to take offense by any of my posts on elitism, especially this one. I am aiming at those who I believe actually harm anime fandom by there nazi-like approach to fandom and disdain for all those who do not agree with them. I would also recommend that you call yourself something other than an elitist, since you will most likely be lumped in with the others.

My thoughts on tenants of destructive elitism:
Things are only valuable if they are rare. Many elitists pride themselves on knowing more than anyone else. Once anime becomes mainstream, then “normalâ€

[ShiroiHikari]

Meh, I don't care. What truly matters is I like that series. If kids want to lump me with a certain group just cause I watch the "this" or "that" series, I don't let msyelf worry about it. Nor do I worry about a series going mainstream. If it does, cool. If it doesn't, cool. Then again I don't really pay attention what's new or cool in the anime community.

I agree with you, dude. I guess I'm just different from most other people...if I like something, I don't want it to be obscure, I want all my friends to know about it. *coughwatchcoughfireflycough* I get tired of going "Hey, do you like [whatever]?" and getting "Huh?" as the answer.

I'm not really involved with the anime "community" anymore either. I just watch what interests me and if I don't like it, I stop watching it.

[mitsuki lover]

For myself I got into anime because I like Sci Fi and Fantasy.Unlike some people I didn't really get into watching anime because of Cartoon Network,rather it was Anime Unleashed that got me into it with Silent Mobius,Crest of the Stars,Geneshaft,etc.It was only after I had been watching Anime Unleashed for awhile that I got into watching Inuyasha and the other AS shows on Cartoon Network.
I mention it since it meant that when I started out the anime I first saw weren't necessarily the uberpopular ones like Inuyasha or Sailor Moon.

[Myoti]

I think that it is a waste that kids have to see the version of a series that has been totally revamped and has lost the meaning that the original story artist tried to convey. Naruto being a prime example. It's sad to me that kids have to see the " Kiddy " version of it, and [ In my personal opinion ] bad voice acting all over.

I'm kinda half and half on this.

From what I understand, alot of stuff like Naruto and One Piece ARE KID'S SHOWS in Japan, but more of the "10-13" age range, not "6+" as they try too often to make them. We in America, however, appear to have a different view of what is "right" when it comes to anime (though I've seen plenty worse on homebrewed "kid's shows").

Naruto, to me, however, did wonderfully here. They made it more "acceptable" for a "kid's show" (which it is) but kept in enough to satisfy the older fans.

It got a PG rating on Toonami. I'd call that a step in the right direction.

[Maledicte]

It's pretty much the same in all circles--independent bands going mainstream comes to mind.

There are some people who are jealous in a bad way about things like these--because they're one of the few who know about it, that makes them "special" like some part of a secret organization. Others, like myself, like the idea of making it widely available, because we're too lazy to search and/or our parents don't let us buy stuff off the internet.

But only up to a point. Sometimes a series gets so beaten up and washed out, only a carbon copy of its original state, and for most people that's intolerable, to shamelessly market what was once a good series just for the sake of getting money from the moms of screeching little kids.

[^Kaji]

It's not the going mainstream that bugs us, it's the torrent of raving idiots that latch onto something and run it straight into the ground. The corps of course latch onto it and influence it enough to twist it into something it was never meant to be, making it even worse. The process is sickening and we have developed a knee jerk reaction at the first sign of it.

[Hitokiri]

Other examples of series that were "Too cleaned up" in my opinion: Tenchi Muyo, Outlaw Star, etc...these series were on Cartoon Network, and I think they're probably better examples than SK, but I'm more familiar with what was edited in SK.

If I remember right for Tenchi Muyo, they actually went in and painted bathing suits for the hot springs scenes. I see nothing wrong with that at all. Actually, I think it's good they have that much of editing so then someone who is new to anime, such as I was, to be introduced to good series in a clean manner.

They did slip the ball with Outlaw Star though when they aciddently left in 3 swear words during the run of the show haha. I remember turning my t.v. way down when I heard it and looked over at my parents to see if they noticed. As well, as the Melfina being edited and the one hot springs episode (funny episode though) not included on the CN run. But those should be no brianers to edit out since they are offensive to the usual teenage viewers of when Toonami ran them.

What truly bugs me are people who are all "underground" or "anti-mainstream". That bugs me.