Final Fantasy 7...

[Tommy]

No, i meant because of the numerous characters it made the plot weaker.

And I said I left out more stuff than you did. I didn`t say I didn`t leave anyhthing out.

Basically, what I`m saying is:

It`s easier to the sum the plot of FF6 into 3 sentances than FF7.

[Nate]

Too lazy to put quote marks, but all the spoilers are Ryan's:

[spoiler]Each characters reason for fighting against Kefka[/spoiler]
Um...he destroyed the world. That's about it. Not a very rich or interesting reason.

[spoiler]The identity of Shadow[/spoiler]
Had no bearing on the storyline. I think Tom is talking about things important to the storyline. Sephiroth killing Aeris is definitely central to the plot. This is not.

[spoiler]The identity of Gogo (never revealed by the way)[/spoiler]
Yeah, I can't count the number of times people have wondered about that one. Like I said before, no bearing on the storyline at all. And I don't think anyone even really cared.

[spoiler]What ever happened to Daryll[/spoiler]
He went to go be with his brother Daryll and his other brother Daryll.

Having way too many characters doesn't mean ya got to use them... There were a number of characters I never really used

Yeah, but if you're a completionist like me, you want to do all the sidequests. And having characters you never really use means they're severely underpowered when you go to do their sidequests, making them a liability rather than useful. That irritates me to no end. It also means, like I said before, that there is no room for any interesting or enriching character growth due to the sheer number of characters.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

The only thing that Tom mentioned that was important was that [spoiler]aeris died[/spoiler]

the other stuff isn't really central to the plot either

It also means, like I said before, that there is no room for any interesting or enriching character growth due to the sheer number of characters.

I have to disagree. I was amazed how they were able to grow each characters story with so many of them. (Even ones people don't use, like Gau) And granted, others were more in depth than others. But others simply had a less-interesting life.

[Tommy]

No everything I mentioned was important to the plot.

I think this debate should be stopped now since it`s sorta off-topic.

The topic at hand is FF7 only.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

No everything I mentioned was important to the plot.

No not everything. The whole "president shinra dying" wasn't really important when you focus on the entire plot

I could also argue that you left out a lot of the plot in FF6.

And more characters make a better plot. There were numerous times in FF6 where you never controlled Terra/Tina. Such as going to Zozo, and the ghost train and doma arch, and the locke changing outfits part. Atleast it isn't "lets always use the main protagonist and beat the bad guy" like Final Fantasy 7. If I recall there was only a few minor parts without cloud in your party. Such as running away from Shinra building and at the one place where cloud has that weird flashback with Zach in it and stuff.

[everdred12a]

Just a question - Am I the only person on this forum that didn't care when Aeris died? And just to prevent someone from chewing me out about spoilers, someone else already posted that she died.

[Tommy]

Actually a GIANT portion of Disk 2 had no Cloud.

[Nate]

And more characters make a better plot.

I have one word to disprove that: Megatokyo.

I rest my case.

[Tommy]

OMG...I`m in a debate and Kaemmerite is agreeing on my terms.

I must be dreaming. I`m usually proved wrong.

Two words to disprove that: Chrono Cross.

[Tommy]

No not everything. The whole "president shinra dying" wasn't really important when you focus on the entire plot

I could also argue that you left out a lot of the plot in FF6.

And more characters make a better plot. There were numerous times in FF6 where you never controlled Terra/Tina. Such as going to Zozo, and the ghost train and doma arch, and the locke changing outfits part. Atleast it isn't "lets always use the main protagonist and beat the bad guy" like Final Fantasy 7. If I recall there was only a few minor parts without cloud in your party. Such as running away from Shinra building and at the one place where cloud has that weird flashback with Zach in it and stuff.

How about when he gets into the Wheel Chair and they have to fins the HUGe Materia.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I have one word to disprove that: Megatokyo.

I rest my case.

I was reffering to Final Fantasy 6... not some webmanga with largo-san kicked out...

[Nate]

I was using Megatokyo as an example, that since there are 14 main characters, that the plot moves horrendously slow and none of them receive adequate attention and therefore cannot grow or develop.

I was using it to illustrate that the storyline for FF6 is damaged by the sheer number of characters, same as Megatokyo is.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I was using it to illustrate that the storyline for FF6 is damaged by the sheer number of characters, same as Megatokyo is.

I don't see any damage.... explain this "damage"

[Radical Dreamer]

Just a question - Am I the only person on this forum that didn't care when Aeris died? And just to prevent someone from chewing me out about spoilers, someone else already posted that she died.

Kyaaa, someone agrees with me!! I was actually happy when Aeris died. XD Cloud and Tifa, not Cloud and Aeris. Aeris could have been cool, she really could have. But she was waaay too flirty. And she was all...I dunno...Useless? I don't recall having any trouble keeping my party healed after she was dead. Sure, the classic scene where she dies is a really great and emotional scene, but...I just don't find it really sad that she died. Does that make me cold-hearted?


Now, to keep the debate moving (and let's keep this one healthy, guys), it is true that more characters can mean more plot.

Exhibit A: Lord of the Rings. Lots of character development, with more than nine main characters (I'm including Faramir, Eowyn, Theoden, Gollum...etc.). There were tons of main characters in LOTR, and yet, they were somehow all able to have plenty of character development while the main plot stayed intact.

Exhibit B: Lost (as in the television show). There are 10 or more main characters on this show, and the amount of good character development is
insane. Seriously, you would never expect such quality from a mere television show, but it's there. In a mass of characters, they are able to develop the characters while they progress the storyline. Amazing, right?

Now, I want you to notice something. These two forms of entertainment I have listed are both rather long. One is spanned over three 3-hour movies, while the other is spanned over a tv series with 2+ seasons. The length allows for plenty of development when the time is used effectively.

Also note that video games are a rather lengthy form of entertainment as well. This allows for time for development if the time is used effectively. I thought that Chrono Cross was a fantastic game, but the creators failed to use the time alotted for character development effectively. So, you only had a few characters that you were really able to enjoy, even though most of the characters had their own backstories and developments, if you used them enough (except for that Poshul pup...she was really useless! XD). I've actually found something on Gamefaqs that shows how all of CC's characters are linked together, through past events or acquaintances. So every character is there for a reason, but not all of them will be used in the first playthrough. Note how this allows for replay value.

Now, in the case of Final Fantasy VII...I really didn't think there were too many characters at all. I mean, I had my regular party, and I didn't use certain characters, but that was mainly because I just...Well, I didn't like 'em. However, all of the characters in FFVII did, infact, have some link to the game's plot. Except maybe Yuffie...She just kinda...well, showed up. She was one of my most commonly used characters, though.

All of this is to say that more characters doesn't always mean a bad plot or no plot. It usually means a better plot if the writers know what they're doing. Also, less characters doesn't always mean a good plot. It could mean less variety and less interesting interactions. Basically, it all depends on the creators of whatever form of media it is.


Dang. Wish I could write my term paper on THAT subject. I'd be done with it by now.

[everdred12a]

I don't think that it makes you cold-hearted at all ^_^

I don't know if I can say that I was happy when she died, but I just didn't feel motivated by it. I think that's what they wanted to accomplish by killing her - motivating the party and the player to want to get their revenge against Sephiroth. I was more like, "Okay, can I play disc 2 yet?"

But yeah, I never used Aeris unless I had to (and I have actually used her in past games).

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I was deeply sad that Aeris died. She was a part of me! WE HAD THAT EMOTIONAL BOND

Okay in seriousness, she had that "hopeless cutesy cutesy girly-girl" feel that I absolutely adore so much >_>

When she died I almost cried. Cloud, Tifa, Barret, the whole gang lost a valuable friend...

[Chosen Raven]

Actually Chosen Raven's analysis of FFVII is the best I've heard from someone who doesn't like it. Most people who like other FF games or dislike VII can't give reasonable explanations as to why.

Well thank you. I do appreciate that.

but I still say that every other FF game has the exact attributes that he dislikes VII for. Does the ability to mash the X button during a summon really make it that much more interactive? The monsters improving according to your own level was a good improvement I'll admit, but I ask the same question. How does that improve the games interactivity.

Don't forget the limit breaks. Squall's had timed button presses, Irvine's allowed you to "pull the trigger" of his gun, and Zell's had fighting game style button presses. As for button mashing during FF8's summons(I think it was the square button), it may be one-note, but it allows to do something while a summon is playing out. Knights of the Round was an awesome summon and all, but after you see it a few times, you just want to get past it and straight to the damage it inflicts.

Then again, this whole debate can be avoided if you all simply admit that Final Fantasy Tactics own all the other Final Fantasys....

Well, it's not my favorite FF, but it's a really good game and definitely the best strategy RPG I've ever played.

You're saying...wait wait wait. You're saying that running around fighting enemies to draw spells to junction is somehow BETTER than running around fighting enemies to get more money to buy armor? They seem the same to me.

Heh, you misunderstood me. That's exactly what I was saying. The junction system didn't bother me because fighting enemies to get enough money to buy armor doesn't bother me. They're both a good excuse to do some leveling up.

Now to talk of the greatness of FF6. I have to disagree with those that say the number of characters in FF6 damaged the story. FF6 is no Crono Cross(and I mean that as a compliment). Especially when you look at it from this angle: defeating Kefka was the side plot. At least in the second half of the game. The main quest was character centered. Kefka was just sitting in his tower, he wasn't going anywhere or doing anything. He had already pretty much destroyed and conquered the world. The main quest was to find the wherabouts of your friends and then defeat Kefka. These characters had some great character developing quests. I'd say that there were only three characters who weren't well developed: Mog, Umaru, and Gogo. But they were also characters that didn't have any real character developing quests, which means you never had to use them(except in Kefka's tower).

And about times where you don't play the main character, that rarely happened in the game. Why? Because FF6 technically has three main characters:Terra, Locke, and Celes. Terra was important in the first half, Celes in the second, and Locke had a major role throughout(in fact, if you gather all the characters and then face Kefka, it is Terra and Locke who go to the forefront and debate him).

And as far as music goes, FF7 can't touch FF6. FF6, Chrono Trigger, and Earthbound have the most memorable music of any game I have ever played. FF7 had one, maybe two tracks that were good. And the ending, whew! FF6's ending blew FF7's out of the water. In fact, if it wasn't far Advent Children, we could all just assume that Holy killed off humanity. The ending was quite vague and unsatisfactory.

Kyaaa, someone agrees with me!! I was actually happy when Aeris died. XD Cloud and Tifa, not Cloud and Aeris. Aeris could have been cool, she really could have. But she was waaay too flirty. And she was all...I dunno...Useless? I don't recall having any trouble keeping my party healed after she was dead. Sure, the classic scene where she dies is a really great and emotional scene, but...I just don't find it really sad that she died. Does that make me cold-hearted?

I don't know, I don't even like the game and I thought that was a sad moment. Draw your own conclusions.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

And the ending, whew! FF6's ending blew FF7's out of the water.

I loved it when Gogo and Celes both move at the same time to hit the button.... then Gogo gets trapped (I think)

lol Gogo is my favorite character

[CDLviking]

Don't forget the limit breaks. Squall's had timed button presses, Irvine's allowed you to "pull the trigger" of his gun, and Zell's had fighting game style button presses.

Squall and Irvine were still just button mashing. The only character that gave any real interactivity was Zell since you could actually choose how you wanted to do your moves.

[Stephen]

Just figured I would toss this out, I hated the drawing part of FF8. I felt like it was a cheap way to make people play the game more. I found it boring and annoying to draw stuff. It made battles long and mundane.

[Tommy]

It was fun, but Il ike the original way better. If it wasn`t for not wanting EXP, I would like the Junction system alot