Obliterated in translation

[Nu-En-Jin]

Don't get me wrong, people, I'm not trying to slash CN into pieces, as if the production of the english version was their fault entirely.
They simply caught my ire because another originally awesome show is PROBABLY going to be slaughtered and repackaged as meaningless tripe for the youth of the west, instead of retaining the depth and emotion of the original versions.
It's like... the Star Wars special editions... Greedo shooting first? CG dewbacks? Hayden Christensen at the end of Return of the Jedi? What...? In the end, after multiple viewings and giving the revised films a chance, we find that the original versions' charm was simply better, and more pure.
Similar situation here, I suppose, in the sense that original viewings tend to set our standard for any subsequent changes to the material.
I saw Ranma dubbed first, and loved it. I saw it subtitled later, and got a bunch of the soundtracks (the Japanese ones), and between the two versions, as much as I held such fondness for the english dub, the japanese voices held more emotion, more polish, and more talent, to be honest. I can appreciate both, and enjoy both, but whatever "stuck on a desert island" scenario involves one anime to take with you, I'll take a sub any day of the week.
As far as the Naruto on CN subject that started this thread, I'm not simply assuming that the english dub will be bad... if we're judging such things by the measure of what has come before it, it's possible the voices may be decently handled... extreeeeeemely doubtful, as supremely good dubs are few and far between, but still a hope for that.
No, the only thing I am most concerned with is the content. Edits, name changes, and basically any other amount of dumbing it down for the culturally challenged general population of america (and yes, canada, too), with Sasuke plushes and Konoha headbands appearing in hot topic and suncoast shortly thereafter (which I, much like the other lemmings, will most likely purchase)
This topic was more of a rant against western culture's tendency to remove the thought and creativity in favor of volume and marketability. Conformity minus integrity... with all the heart sucked out.

[uc pseudonym]

But I think the emotion sounds better in the voices.

That's valid, given that you know some Japanese. I generally disagree, but the opinion is valid.

I have to say I did not agree that subtitles pervert the essance of anime because I think that certain voice actors are choisen for a reason.

Likely not chosen by the original creator. However, you misunderstand my point. I felt that subtitles change the medium itself, not a specific anime.

ANd that in changeing it from the original voice actor changes the feeling of the film.

Also very possible, but I think that is largely a matter of perception.

I think that the subtitled version is closer to the creaters intent then the dub because how something is said can effect how someone percieves it.

Generally speaking, the actor chooses how the line is said, not the creator. So if the original meaning was perverted, you would never know. The same happens when an anime is dubbed, but everyone has become enamored with the old format of the line. Also, I have to point out that unless you know Japanese you don't know how the line was said. The syntax is different, so the subtitle can actually be misleading given the voice at the time.

[Arnobius]

As I've said before, subtitles pervert the very essence of anime. The medium is meant to be seen and heard not read. Yes, if a series is edited beyond recognition that isn't good, but if otherwise equal the dub is actually closer (for those who only understand English) to what the creator wanted.

I wouldn't say they pervert it. (Of course I watch even English DVDs with subs on to make sure I understand the dialogue.) I have always watched the subtitled version of foreign films when available, and it was because you got to see how the original actors acted.

The main problem with dubs is, no matter how good they can be, they will usually be inferior because, even at their best, they can only re-enact the dialogue and it tends to lose some of the intensity. For example I'm glad Sony Pictures decided to release Downfall in the original German subtitled, so I could experience Bruno Ganz' uncannily accurate portrayal of Hitler, as opposed to someone else trying to recreate the voice. I cannot imagine any dub actors, even the most talented being able to capture the despair and desperation portrayed by the original actors in that movie.

As for the idea that the dub is closer to what the director intended, I would have to dissent. Mot only do you have to get the voice right, but the context and culture into English too. Unfortunately it cannot be done with dubs. Every anime dub out there rewrites the story either ommitting or embellishing elements from the original to put it in context to the dub viewer. When they can't, they change the reference into something else the western viewer can relate to. Moreover the dub tends to target the Western viewer while the sub gives the viewer the closest experience of what the Japanese viewer sees.

Try watching a anime DVD with the audio on dub and turn on the subtitles. See how big the disconnect is?

[Nate]

I agree with AnimeHeretic. I don't feel that subtitles pervert the anime at all, just because it was meant to be heard and not read.

I mean, you don't feel that closed captioning on TV programs perverts the TV program, do you? Granted, the people that use closed captions can't help that they're deaf, but they're still reading it and not hearing it.

Further, like AH was saying, the dubs have to change dialogue...because some of the dialogue just plain "doesn't work" in English. Remember, they have to sync the lines they're speaking in English to the animation, and very rarely would a line in English sync with how it's said in Japanese, animationwise. In fact, it sometimes takes very little to say a lot in Japanese, or a lot to say very little. In either case, the dialogue has to be changed in English to correspond to the lip synching.

Plus, the dub seems to change stuff for no reason, that completely alters the creator's original intent. Case in point:

In the original Japanese of the Ah! My Goddess OAV first episode, Keiichi's wish to Belldandy is, "I want a girl like you to stay with me forever."

In the English dub, the line is now, "I want you to stay with me forever."

The second line is obviously not what the creator intended, it has been altered for whatever reason, and is not the dialogue that was originally there. Therefore, I would state that dubs are more of an alteration to the original intent than the subs...at least in most cases.

[kazekami]

I agree with AnimeHeretic and Kammerite. Also I have watched films in laungagues i don't understand and I still like it better. Chinese makes no sense to me but I can still hear the emotion in the voices. ANd I'd rather hear it in chinese then Dub. Same if I watch a German or Italian film. I don't know those laungagues either. Never studies them at all. Granted understanding the laungague a bit does give you a better understanding but I agree that a Dub is just a renactment that is not as poignent(I think I mispelled that) as the original.

[Shao Feng-Li]

I guess one thing to consider would be the lip synching, eh? They might have to change lines around a bit to keep in time with the character mouth movements.

[Kaligraphic]

They're typically not lip-synced in Japan.

[Myoti]

Um, does no think Japan has bad voice-acting, too?
Though yes, I sometimes prefer subs, but that's only if there's absolutely no other way to get the original goodness in English. A show like Trigun had, IMO, very good voice actors, so I never felt there was a reason to really switch it to sub (though I may for the heck of it sometime).

I'm crossing my fingers and praying that One Piece Uncut will come here. If it doesn't, oh well. Then I'll import (can't download, got dial-up...).
Still, I sometimes find it funny how one little letter can cause so much trouble, namely changing "Zoro" to "Zolo". I wouldn't really care, as that kind of thing is typically interchangable, but when the show blatanly spells out "Luffy" with a "L" and "Zoro" with an "R", somethin's up (I understand there's probably some copyright/trademark issues over this with another certain swordsman...).

If anything, you can just think of the dubbed version as a "preview" of the real thing. I mean, if I hadn't (and still do) seen the dubbed version of OP, I would never have known about it or realized how great it really was (I actually thought it was just some take off "Pirates of the Carribean"; little did I know...).
So, about 3% of me wants to say "Thanks 4Kids!" while the other 98.5% shouts "BURN!!!".


Oh, and a little comment on some of the fansubbers. Why why WHY must some of them be so crude? I was reading an OP fansub and had some words here and there, then one translator started out right throwing in F-bombs, which I am pretty sure didn't exist. Of course, that doesn't bother me as much "G-- D--- it" does...

[Nate]

So, about 3% of me wants to say "Thanks 4Kids!" while the other 98.5% shouts "BURN!!!".

Dude, that's 101.5%. o.O

Oh, and a little comment on some of the fansubbers. Why why WHY must some of them be so crude? I was reading an OP fansub and had some words here and there, then one translator started out right throwing in F-bombs, which I am pretty sure didn't exist. Of course, that doesn't bother me as much "G-- D--- it" does...

Heh. It all depends on the people in charge. I haven't seen it personally, but I hear that the English dub of Excel Saga had WAY more language than the subtitles did. In fact, I've noticed that trend myself, the dubs tend to have a lot more cursing than the subtitles (unless the show is watered down for children). I don't know why that is.

[Tenshi no Ai]

Oh, and a little comment on some of the fansubbers. Why why WHY must some of them be so crude? I was reading an OP fansub and had some words here and there, then one translator started out right throwing in F-bombs, which I am pretty sure didn't exist. Of course, that doesn't bother me as much "G-- D--- it" does...

They want it to sound cool or whatever. I think it degrades the characters in some cases :/ Although some character DO swear alot (orginal Inuyasha for example) subbers like to make it sound better and more hardcore I guess :/

[Arnobius]

Um, does no think Japan has bad voice-acting, too?
Though yes, I sometimes prefer subs, but that's only if there's absolutely no other way to get the original goodness in English. A show like Trigun had, IMO, very good voice actors, so I never felt there was a reason to really switch it to sub (though I may for the heck of it sometime).

I'd dissent on the Trigun dub... it was terrible and full of stupid and unnecessary rewrites (IMHO of course), but in response to your question, the answer is: not as bad as Ameican.

In Japan: All the characters in a scene are in the recordig room together and work together on the scene. Character interaction sounds great and natural.

In America: Each character gets into a sound booth and does all of his lines one after another, trying to time to the lips and match the length of time it takes to say the line. There is no interaction between the characters, and as a result, the interactions on the episode don't quite match. They do all their lines for an episode in one day (that way they only have to pay for one day). Moreover, because of the amount paid, they don't get the best actors... just whoever will work for the amount offered. Most of them view their work as a step on trying to reach the big time (like Disney).

I think the end result is shown by the fact that Japanese voice actors like Megumi Hayashibara are big stars. How many American VA's are?

[Myoti]

Dude, that's 101.5%. o.O

Exactly. I must make up for that 3% that wants to thanks them (actually, after today's episode it's down to 2%).

I'd dissent on the Trigun dub... it was terrible and full of stupid and unnecessary rewrites (IMHO of course), but in response to your question, the answer is: not as bad as Ameican.

*shrugs*
Guess I'm just not as "experienced" as other anime fans out there, but I watch the DVD and I didn't find anything terribly stupid or wrong with it.

[Nate]

I'd dissent on the Trigun dub... it was terrible and full of stupid and unnecessary rewrites (IMHO of course), but in response to your question, the answer is: not as bad as Ameican.

Hmm...I'll watch it subtitled one day to check and see. As far as the quality of the voices though, Trigun ranks very high on my list.

In America: Each character gets into a sound booth and does all of his lines one after another, trying to time to the lips and match the length of time it takes to say the line. There is no interaction between the characters, and as a result, the interactions on the episode don't quite match.

I've never understood that...this is why I could never be a voice actor for an American cartoon, because I wouldn't be able to function if I couldn't interact with other people involved in a scene. It just wouldn't feel natural.

I must make up for that 3% that wants to thanks them (actually, after today's episode it's down to 2%).

Heh...I saw the VG Cats comic about 4Kids dubbing One Piece yesterday. That one made me laugh quite hard.

[Jeikobu]

At least shows like Naruto will be getting uncut releases. Great anime like Pocket Monsters, Tokyo Mew Mew, and One Piece may never see light outside Japan at this rate. ><;;;;;

[uc pseudonym]

I wouldn't say they pervert it.

I agree with AnimeHeretic.

I agree with AnimeHeretic and Kammerite.

And you are obviously entitled to your opinions.

For example I'm glad Sony Pictures decided to release Downfall in the original German subtitled, so I could experience Bruno Ganz' uncannily accurate portrayal of Hitler, as opposed to someone else trying to recreate the voice.

I'll accept that Bruno Ganz might be a much better voice actor for Hitler than anyone else. But think about your sentence. Both actors are just trying to emulate Hitler]As for the idea that the dub is closer to what the director intended, I would have to dissent.[/quote]

You do realize that was the same as the previous idea, I hope.

Mot only do you have to get the voice right, but the context and culture into English too. Unfortunately it cannot be done with dubs.

Someone once said that eventually all translation is shown to be only paraphrase. Do you think that culture and context can honestly be gotten right in dubs by use of notes? That's an opinion question, but I don't feel that it can. Admittedly, most subbers make more effort than dubbers.

Try watching a anime DVD with the audio on dub and turn on the subtitles. See how big the disconnect is?

I have done that (couldn't figure out how to work my friend's DVD player). It was indeed unusual to hear one line while reading another. But upon reflection I don't think that the changes made honestly effected the show overall. Of course, this is mostly about details. Even there, however, I observed this:
The dubbers took some liberties with the text.
The subbers write terrible dialogue.

Those aren't really separate observations]I mean, you don't feel that closed captioning on TV programs perverts the TV program, do you? Granted, the people that use closed captions can't help that they're deaf, but they're still reading it and not hearing it.[/quote]

On the same principles, yes, but I never use closed captioning. In the case of deaf people, the lack of voices considerably changes the medium, because they can only get emotion through facial expressions not tone. That doesn't necessarily ruin a show, but it does make it very different.

Um, does no think Japan has bad voice-acting, too?

I don't like to judge because I don't know the language, but yes, there are a number of anime that I feel suffer from poor Japanese voice acting.

[Arnobius]

Well, I guess this is where there isn't much more to say than I disagree with your assessment. Anything else I might say would probably come off sounding like I was whining starting a flame war or something, so I'll pass.

As for preferences of translation, I'd rather have accurate. Having studied Japanese, I find accurately translated subs invaluable, and can also provide some insights into Japan that tend to be missing. Of course accuracy problems aren't just in anime. Recently I've been buying the original Japanese manga for Love Hina, and have found that there were a lot of complete rewrites of dialogue. In many cases the Japanese was either funnier or more touching depending on what was said.

The biggest issue to me is the changing of meaning. When a dubber throws in profanity or sexual innuendo (Like episode 1 of Trigun when Milly and Meryl come into town: "It would'nt be free... if you know what I mean"), it is perverting the original intent of the dialogue. When Fushigi Yuugi's dub cuts out all references to Noriko's issues, it is distorting the original intent. When the Sailor Moon dub changes a character's gender or relationships, it is not the show the Japanese are seeing.

American dubs tend to go one of two ways: if they can market to kids, they cut all the controversial things out. If it they can't, they go the other way and make it sound like the script was written by Eric Cartman (Excel Saga for example).

So people are free to watch what they like. People who want entertainment and like dubs, are welcome to them (Hey, multi language DVDs were a better deal for sub fans... in VHS, they cost $30 for a subbed VHS and $20 for a dubbed VHS). But with my preferences, subs are the better option.

<EDIT> Of course, I guess I should disclose that I preferred the dub of Kiki's Delivery Service over the sub. But that's bacause I liked Phil Hartman's interpretation of Jiji. It still was a distortion, but I think there Jiji looked more like a Luna clone in the Japanese.

[uc pseudonym]

Well, I guess this is where there isn't much more to say than I disagree with your assessment. Anything else I might say would probably come off sounding like I was whining starting a flame war or something, so I'll pass.

I doubt that you'd be accused of whining or flaming, but even so I think that is probably a wise choice. Ultimately this comes down to a matter of opinion and, as you said, disagreeing with each other on a fundamental basis. I know I am personally tired of this subject (I was before this thread, actually), so I have no problem with letting it be.

[Myoti]

Heh...I saw the VG Cats comic about 4Kids dubbing One Piece yesterday. That one made me laugh quite hard.

Ah yes. The dreaded "Fox-Bot" strikes again...

I know I am personally tired of this subject (I was before this thread, actually), so I have no problem with letting it be.

Ditto. If you guys can stand with it, don't keep complaining. Do something about it.