Why do rabid otakus pick bad titles to defend?

[rocklobster]

I just saw Ninja Scroll. Why do the rabid otakus have to keep picking trash like Ninja Scroll , FLCL and to some extent Akira to defend? Why can't they pick titles that aren't as perverted or gory? I'm sorry if this causes a thread war, but I cannot join otakus in defending titles like these.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

I don't really know. Maybe because they see them as quality anime and maybe they are but they do have a lot of questionable content. I haven't seen Ninja Scroll but I've heard its very violent and very sexual, so I'll pass. Not into that sort of thing. Borrowed several FLCL manga from the library and thought, what drugs did the artist/writer intake before creating this? Too weird. Even for me. And I'm like the king of weird.

[shooraijin]

Mod note: This hasn't happened yet, but this has the seeds of becoming an "anime I dislike" thread and that usually serves only to get a lot of people restless when their particular series gets posted. It will be locked if it goes in that direction.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Sorry shooraijin!

[Rocketshipper]

Because they don't think they are bad? I mean, that's really the only explanation. It's just a difference of opinion. They like those animes, and other people don't. An at least Akira and Ninja Scroll are considerdto be classics because of their high quality animation and plots; I think

http://www.themanime.org/viewreview.php?id=24 THEM anime Akira review

http://www.themanime.org/viewreview.php?id=254 THEM anime Ninja Scroll Review

[Kkun]

Rocketshipper hit the heart of it. I think this question really has to do with the fact that there is quite a large percentage of the anime community who are not Christians and do not have the same moral convictions that most of us here do. We shouldn't expect people who are not Christians to act like Christians, you know?

[Rev. Doc]

I think you are going to find that many of the titles that are defended are the older features such as Akira, Eva, Ghost In The Shell, ect. These were in reality breakthrough anime in more than one sense. A generation got their first impression of anime as something other than "cartoons." They were hard hitting and over the top, gritty and filled with emotion. They were released back in the time when you couldn't just pop into Best Buy, Suncoast, or surf hundreds of on line sites to pick and choose from hundreds of titles. They couldn't just turn on their TV sets and decide which cable network to watch their favorite series on. In essense, their hobby was unknown and misunderstood by most and they could literally spend months looking for another episode of anything that was out there. They were in essence pioneers as anime began to reach beyond Japan more so than it had at any time in it's history. They still cling to these titles for a number of reasons, but I think mainly for the impact they had in their own lives at one time.

[Arnobius]

Rev Doc is right. At the time they were released, these things were cutting edge (I remember the limited run Akira originally had in the US in 89-- in comparison to what America was used to (Disney) it was dramatically different in style and content.

As for why the titles were rather explicit, back then the main market for anime was adults, hence the amount of mature titles among companies like Manga, US Manga Corps, older ADV etc. It wasn't really until the Pokemon phenomenon that anime distributors really began marketing to younge viewers, and seeing them as the principal market.

Of course this was back in the days of VHS, <reaches for walker and hearing aid> when it cost more to buy a subbed anime tape ($29.99) than a dubbed anime tape (DVD really benefitted the sub fan )

[Nate]

Stepping in as a Ninja Scroll fan, I will say that it's hardly trash. I know you don't like it because of its content, but storywise and animationwise it's quite solid, and I enjoy it because of that. ^^

[bigsleepj]

Stepping in as a Ninja Scroll fan, I will say that it's hardly trash. I know you don't like it because of its content, but storywise and animationwise it's quite solid, and I enjoy it because of that. ^^

I have to agree to a degree with Kaemmerite. The basic story and the animation of Ninja Scroll is excellent and the villains are interesting and challenging (and relatively intelligent) when Jubei faces them. On the other hand the movie has a lot of pornography in it (both the sexual and the violent) and most of the characters treat women like dirt in it. These things outweigh the good for me.

In short I'm not sorry I saw it but I would never like to repeat the experience.

[Technomancer]

I just saw Ninja Scroll. Why do the rabid otakus have to keep picking trash like Ninja Scroll , FLCL and to some extent Akira to defend? Why can't they pick titles that aren't as perverted or gory? I'm sorry if this causes a thread war, but I cannot join otakus in defending titles like these.

The fact that a title does not meet your personal moral approval does not preclude it from having merit as an intelligent, well-written story. The reality is that many of these stories do have a depth and artistry to them that is laudable, and in some cases truly ground-breaking. It should at the very least, be obvious that certain stories can't be told credibly without venturing into territory that some may disapprove of.

[termyt]

Since I am a member of the old crowd, I will chime in as well. I started watching anime back in the 80's, before many of you were born.

Those of you who were born after 1980 or so may not understand the impact anime had on many of the older fans like me. A lot of us were already cartoon fans still watching Bugs Bunny and even Saturday morning cartoons because we enjoyed animation as a medium, even if those around us thought we were too old for it. Then we got our first glimpse of anime – real anime, uncut and unedited for American audiences (we didn’t even know Speed Racer was anime). It might have been Akira or Ninja Scroll, Bubblegum Crisis or Vampire Hunter D. Fist of the North Star was so violent, my friends and I laughed from the shock of seeing it. Whatever it was, it was probably violent, gory and contained nudity, but it also had a level of storytelling we had never seen animated before.

I remember I was in shock that such emotion had been animated and I fell in love immediately and watched every bit of anime I could. And that wasn’t a lot. We couldn’t go to the internet and download the latest from Japan and we certainly couldn’t go out and buy it in the store. We went to local anime clubs on university campuses and watched whatever they’d show us and it was rarely Sailor Moon – that’s not what college kids want to watch, for the most part.

So, what’s my point? We fought a long and hard battle to justify our love for anime and as a result, you get to be choosy about what anime you get to watch. But for us old timers, we will always have a soft spot in our hearts for the gritty and often too violent and sexy shows that introduced us to the world of anime. I would probably not watch Ninja Scroll if it came out today and I certainly would not buy the DVD, but because it came out when it did, it has a place of honor in my collection.

I know, deep down, you feel the same. How many of you who’s first love was Sailor Moon are just as excited about Tokyo Mew Mew? You’re tastes have changed, but your love for your first anime doesn’t die. So, don’t watch Ninja Scroll. I don’t recommend it. But please excuse us old timers if we can’t help but hold it up a little higher than it may deserve.

[Rocketshipper]

Stepping in as a Ninja Scroll fan, I will say that it's hardly trash. I know you don't like it because of its content, but storywise and animationwise it's quite solid, and I enjoy it because of that. ^^

Ditto! I've seen Ninja Scroll a few times and I own Akira. I'm not obsessed with them, but I did still enjoy them for their animation and storytelling. I just recently bought the Ninja Scroll OST, it's pretty good. Distant Ballad (the ending theme) is an awesome song. I also want to see FLCL.

[Mave]

Like what others have said, your opinion on how bad an anime is highly dependant on the individual.

I also would echo the concept of sentiment over certain anime titles. I grew up watch Sei Jushi Bismarck and loved it. Up to this day, eventhough the anime series is old and seems kiddish at times (well, it is targeted at a younger audience ), I still love it to death and would valiantly defend it.

[Alice]

I guess I can understand it. I still have to agree with rocklobster. Some anime titles are just sick in my opinion, from what I know about them. When I hear people say how much they LOVE so-and-so title, I kinda want to edge away from them...

[mitsuki lover]

It comes down to taste.We all have different tastes.I happen to find FLCL rather
funny.I do also have the first volume of the manga.Haruko's just hysterical to
watch and then too I like watching the end credits with The Pillows'
Ride On Shooting Star.

[GundamGeek]

Maybe I'm in the opposite boat that termyte described... I am definitely in the "older" crowd, but I came to anime later in life. (My boys actually got me into it! And I'm quite sure that I enjoy it much more than they do now. ) Perhaps because of my age I don't feel the need to watch stuff because it's edgy, and because I don't have the old "fond" memories of when anime was new, I find myself very critical of the sexually explicit stuff. I could only get through the first 10 minutes or so of Ninja Scroll before I shut it off. I was disappointed because I really enjoy the samurai genre and I heard the storyline was excellent, but I kept looking over my shoulder to make sure no one was coming around the corner who would see what I was watching... and if I'm embarassed to be caught watching something, I figure I probably shouldn't be watching it.

I definitely understand why some people who have been into anime for a long time would have to argue in its defence because, especially in older Christian circles, anime is associated almost solely with pornography. That's why I don't even mention to anyone any of the titles like Ninja Scroll or Samurai Champloo (which I watched all the way through and enjoyed except for the gratuitous sexual parts) because I want to be able to share some of the great anime I've watched with my friends and family without having to be embarassed of its contents. I wouldn't want to recommend a show or talk about a show I've watched that would damage my testimony or that might cause someone to stumble if they watched it because I said it was good.

Maybe I'm too cautious (or too old! ) but I guess in the matters of my personal testimony and my spiritual influence on others, I'd always personally prefer to err on the side of caution.

(As a side note, one of the reasons I was thrilled to find CAA was to be able to talk about these shows in an environment where I wasn't petrified about shocking people merely by mentioning that I watch anime! I literally know only one person in the flesh who I can talk to occasionally.... so this is a very refreshing exchange of ideas! Thanks!! And to termyte and anyone else who does enjoy Ninja Scroll, please don't take my words as a condemnation in any way... just explaining what I had on my mind. )

[Yojimbo]

That's why I don't even mention to anyone any of the titles like Ninja Scroll or Samurai Champloo (which I watched all the way through and enjoyed except for the gratuitous sexual parts) because I want to be able to share some of the great anime I've watched with my friends and family without having to be embarassed of its contents.

I agree with ya there about Ninja Scroll but I fail to see how Champloo's sexual content can even be compared to that. Ninja Scroll's sexual content is borderline hentai.

Anyway I do agree with what many of you have said. I do commend Ninja Scroll as a piece of art and a very groundbreaking anime for it's time. I did enjoy watching it except for the sexual stuff. But I don't think I'd ever buy it or watch it regularly though.

[GundamGeek]

I agree with ya there about Ninja Scroll but I fail to see how Champloo's sexual content can even be compared to that. Ninja Scroll's sexual content is borderline hentai.

I guess that's where the Lord gives us each different leadings and levels of tolerance, because I would say that Ninja Scroll is hentai. And Samurai Champloo just had a pervasive casual sexual content that I personally would be embarassed to have anyone sitting next to me and watching. But I sat there by myself and enjoyed watching it, so perhaps that's a bit of a double-standard on my part! heehee!

I would guess, Yojimbo, that my being older, very conservative in general, and a parent does color my view on things. And I certainly don't expect everyone to share my "squareness"!

[desperado]

see compared to some people im a newbie to anime (well sorta i started watching in 2001 or 02) and one of the shows my freinds showed to me when I started really getting into anime was FlCl. I imediatly saw the ineundos and such but it didnt bother me, i mean its no worse then say austin powers, so i have to say some of the stuff isnt up in arms cry to destroy it (though some stuff should be that way) some of it is what bothers you and what doest, me ineundo and other such things in flcl didnt bother me, but it may to some other people, now could i watch a show like ninja scroll? no (im not bashing on it im stating my level and what i feel my limits are)

[termyt]

Maybe I'm in the opposite boat that termyte [sic]described...

I don't think we're in a different boat at all. If my first experience with such a title was today, we would be in complete agreement. I just think we will always have a soft spot in our hearts for the things that first turned us on to a favorite pastime. Over time, our tastes may change, but we will always look fondly back onto the things that got us started in the first place.

[GundamGeek]

I guess I expressed myself poorly there, termyt... The different boat we were in I meant was coming to anime early vs. late in the game. And I definitely understand about your first anime having a special place in your heart... the first one I watched was G Gundam with my boys, and that is what still calls to me when I want to just throw in an episode of something to enjoy. It is certainly not the best art or storyline I've ever seen, but it's still my sentimental favorite.

(And sorry about misspelling your name, too! )

[rocklobster]

What really gets my goat is that those rabid otakus will just get all "HOW DARE YOU" if you disagree. Can't they understand that it's virtually impossible for you to like every title.
Also, the really bad thing about Ninja Scroll for me is that Rurouni Kenshin also told the same kind of story, but with much less violence. So it proves most of that was violence.
I wouldn't call Ninja Scroll hentai though. It did have a plot, and I think that sort of thing isn't supposed to have plots. Of course, I've never even looked at the stuff, so what do I know?

[Arnobius]

What really gets my goat is that those rabid otakus will just get all "HOW DARE YOU" if you disagree. Can't they understand that it's virtually impossible for you to like every title.
Also, the really bad thing about Ninja Scroll for me is that Rurouni Kenshin also told the same kind of story, but with much less violence. So it proves most of that was violence.
I wouldn't call Ninja Scroll hentai though. It did have a plot, and I think that sort of thing isn't supposed to have plots. Of course, I've never even looked at the stuff, so what do I know?

I can see where you're coming from there, given that my user name comes from the fact that people on other groups I belonged to looked at me like I was a heretic for saying Akira and GitS were really not that good compared to the hype.

Of course, this isn't just done by old timers over old titles. I routinely take flak from RK fans (though not here at least) when I say that I don't like the series, and was even attacked on another forum for saying I didn't like Pokemon. It was the same "How dare you" attitude as you mentioned. So perhaps this is an otaku problem in general and not just an old timer one.

[termyt]

I guess I expressed myself poorly there, termyt... The different boat we were in I meant was coming to anime early vs. late in the game. And I definitely understand about your first anime having a special place in your heart... the first one I watched was G Gundam with my boys, and that is what still calls to me when I want to just throw in an episode of something to enjoy. It is certainly not the best art or storyline I've ever seen, but it's still my sentimental favorite.

(And sorry about misspelling your name, too! )

No problem - happens all of the time. It doesn't really bother me in the least, I just thought it amusing to put [sic] after it since I was quoting my own name being misspelled!

I knew we couldn't be that far off - we old timers need to stick together. It makes perfect sense that in spite of the relative closeness of our ages (I don't know how old you are, but most folks here are far too young to have children, which kind of puts us in the same age bracket), we have very different anime experiences. Thanks for the clarification.


By the way, I like GitS, too. You really are a heretic, Heretic. *Starts to build a wood pile* Anyone got a match?

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I haven't seen Ninja Scroll or Flcl and the most explicit anime I own is a DVD of Parnoia Agent!

yeah ep 3 was.... um... yeah

However you old timers out there, you remind me of myself and my love for Monster... It's not a well known series now, but It is certainly one I would consider a "to-be classic" with amazing art and even more amazing plot although it does have a fair amount of nudity in some episodes

[Alice]

the first one I watched was G Gundam with my boys, and that is what still calls to me when I want to just throw in an episode of something to enjoy. It is certainly not the best art or storyline I've ever seen, but it's still my sentimental favorite.

G Gundam does rock.

I just think we will always have a soft spot in our hearts for the things that first turned us on to a favorite pastime. Over time, our tastes may change, but we will always look fondly back onto the things that got us started in the first place.

I no longer watch the show that got me into anime.

[Arnobius]

[quote="termyt"]No problem - happens all of the time. It doesn't really bother me in the least, I just thought it amusing to put [sic] after it since I was quoting my own name being misspelled!

I knew we couldn't be that far off - we old timers need to stick together. It makes perfect sense that in spite of the relative closeness of our ages (I don't know how old you are, but most folks here are far too young to have children, which kind of puts us in the same age bracket), we have very different anime experiences. Thanks for the clarification.


By the way, I like GitS, too. You really are a heretic, Heretic. *Starts to build a wood pile* Anyone got a match? ]
Heh. Careful... you know how the mods feel about flames

For me I'd rather watch a badly animated series with a good story than a well animated series that neglected the story. So many series/movies just seem over hyped to me, while many I like seem doomed to obscurity.

[Lochaber Axe]

I am one of the new generation... grew up playing pokemon, and only knew about anime from Cartoon Network. I've seen Akira and GITS and found them, ground-breaking for their time... yeah... but the hype doesn't last the test of time. Few things do...

Many of the works from the Renaissance, though considered good in its time, have faded from humanity's conscious. It takes a master hand such as Michelangelo or Da Vinci to niche themselves as true classical artists.

Same will be for anime... time will create the classics... Quite possibly the anime has not been made yet.

Also... I love Gits and even its intellectual plot, but I hate the anti-climatic endings!

[Kura Ookami]

The anime that got me into anime was pokemon, but i dont watch that anymore. Doesn't mean i dont have fond memories of it though no matter how bad it is. Perhaps though, the first anime i bought defined what i love. Maybe it's the same for you Alice?