So... any advice on what I should do? The HK DVDs or the ADV DVDs? I want to do the right, legal and Christian thing.
Advice please?
27 posts •
Page 1 of 1
Advice please?
Hi... I found some Rahxephon DVDs. I know it is already licensed by ADV, but I can get the whole series for cheaper subtitled from Hong Kong. I know there are many illegal HK DVDs, so I did some research and asked the seller some questions. It seems that the HK DVDs are legal, copyrighted, and they are licensed by a Hong Kong Company. Alternatively I can get ADV's dubbbed ones slowly one by one, but... so expensive...
So... any advice on what I should do? The HK DVDs or the ADV DVDs? I want to do the right, legal and Christian thing.
So... any advice on what I should do? The HK DVDs or the ADV DVDs? I want to do the right, legal and Christian thing.
Being a Christian makes me a different otaku; Being an otaku doesn't make me a different Christian!
-
wiggins - Posts: 613
- Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:42 am
- Location: London
wiggins wrote:Hi... I found some Rahxephon DVDs. I know it is already licensed by ADV, but I can get the whole series for cheaper subtitled from Hong Kong. I know there are many illegal HK DVDs, so I did some research and asked the seller some questions. It seems that the HK DVDs are legal, copyrighted, and they are licensed by a Hong Kong Company. Alternatively I can get ADV's dubbbed ones slowly one by one, but... so expensive...
So... any advice on what I should do? The HK DVDs or the ADV DVDs? I want to do the right, legal and Christian thing.
If the DVDs are in fact legal (note that the retailer isn't necessarily going to be honest) then there should not be a problem. However, you may need to look into the question of region encoding.
The scientific method," Thomas Henry Huxley once wrote, "is nothing but the normal working of the human mind." That is to say, when the mind is working; that is to say further, when it is engaged in corrrecting its mistakes. Taking this point of view, we may conclude that science is not physics, biology, or chemistry—is not even a "subject"—but a moral imperative drawn from a larger narrative whose purpose is to give perspective, balance, and humility to learning.
Neil Postman
(The End of Education)
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge
Isaac Aasimov
Neil Postman
(The End of Education)
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge
Isaac Aasimov
-
Technomancer - Posts: 2379
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:47 am
- Location: Tralfamadore
It's NTSC... Why does it matter?
Oh! And one more thing... I hear that dubs can get seriously butchered and edited. Are ADV english dubbed DVDs like that?
Oh! And one more thing... I hear that dubs can get seriously butchered and edited. Are ADV english dubbed DVDs like that?
Being a Christian makes me a different otaku; Being an otaku doesn't make me a different Christian!
-
wiggins - Posts: 613
- Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:42 am
- Location: London
Hi, Wiggins!
I appreciate that you're trying to make a good purchase, as well as one that will guarantee the rightful owners of the distribution rights and creators get their fair share of their hard work.
I posted some other notes on another thread on this subject (http://www.christiananime.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1871), and you can read more (and talk) about it there. In short I'll just say this to answer your question:
ADV does own the US (and probably all of North American) distribution of RahXephon, and this stipulates that they are the ONLY Legal Distribution company with the rights (direct from RahXephon's production agency, BONES). Anyone else distributing copies of this title under any other distribution agency is esentially conducting illegal activity, and/or is highly ignorant of US distribution law (not as if that would save them in a US court if they were caught).
Hong Kong does have legal distribution agencies that sell their own copies of stuff, like RahXephon, and though it's technically 'legal' to purchase from them online, think about this: does it really help the companies in the US to buy from foreign sources they aren't earning money through? Not to mention the vast majority of HK releases are of inferior video/audio/subtitle quality, as well as their 'real credentials' are largely suspect; many of them are blatant pirate operations just operating out of HK just to get your buck for cheap.
Lastly, if you really love your anime, then ask yourself this: Don't you want the best quality anime, and for the benefit of the creators and companies that worked hard to get it in your area?
'Nuff Said. That's my 3 yen. ;2)
I appreciate that you're trying to make a good purchase, as well as one that will guarantee the rightful owners of the distribution rights and creators get their fair share of their hard work.
I posted some other notes on another thread on this subject (http://www.christiananime.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1871), and you can read more (and talk) about it there. In short I'll just say this to answer your question:
ADV does own the US (and probably all of North American) distribution of RahXephon, and this stipulates that they are the ONLY Legal Distribution company with the rights (direct from RahXephon's production agency, BONES). Anyone else distributing copies of this title under any other distribution agency is esentially conducting illegal activity, and/or is highly ignorant of US distribution law (not as if that would save them in a US court if they were caught).
Hong Kong does have legal distribution agencies that sell their own copies of stuff, like RahXephon, and though it's technically 'legal' to purchase from them online, think about this: does it really help the companies in the US to buy from foreign sources they aren't earning money through? Not to mention the vast majority of HK releases are of inferior video/audio/subtitle quality, as well as their 'real credentials' are largely suspect; many of them are blatant pirate operations just operating out of HK just to get your buck for cheap.
Lastly, if you really love your anime, then ask yourself this: Don't you want the best quality anime, and for the benefit of the creators and companies that worked hard to get it in your area?
'Nuff Said. That's my 3 yen. ;2)
<>< DanekJovax :2) ><>
-
DanekJovax - Posts: 345
- Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:52 pm
- Location: Richmond, KY
I would wait for the entire series to be officially released by ADV and then buy the whole thing. You are not guaranteed to get very good quality with HK DVD's, or a good subtitle translation.
-
Azier the Swordsman - Posts: 3109
- Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 10:00 am
- Location: Earth
More: As for ADV's dubs, It's a mixed bag for me. I have enjoyed a few of their dubs, but some of their dubs have got under my skin. They don't heavily edit their dubs as some companies do (4Kids, Nelvana, ect.) but they do sometimes rewrite parts of the dialogue to mean something different than the original show. For instance: Some parts of the dialogue in Generator Gawl was changed to make Koji and Ryo look like homosexuals. (I've been rewatching the sub and there is no indication of this) In Martian Successor Nadesico, some parts of the dialogue were rewritten to add in some off colour jokes.
-
Azier the Swordsman - Posts: 3109
- Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 10:00 am
- Location: Earth
[quote="DanekJovax"]Hi, Wiggins!
I appreciate that you're trying to make a good purchase, as well as one that will guarantee the rightful owners of the distribution rights and creators get their fair share of their hard work.
I posted some other notes on another thread on this subject (http://www.christiananime.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1871), and you can read more (and talk) about it there. In short I'll just say this to answer your question:
ADV does own the US (and probably all of North American) distribution of RahXephon, and this stipulates that they are the ONLY Legal Distribution company with the rights (direct from RahXephon's production agency, BONES). Anyone else distributing copies of this title under any other distribution agency is esentially conducting illegal activity, and/or is highly ignorant of US distribution law (not as if that would save them in a US court if they were caught).
Hong Kong does have legal distribution agencies that sell their own copies of stuff, like RahXephon, and though it's technically 'legal' to purchase from them online, think about this: does it really help the companies in the US to buy from foreign sources they aren't earning money through? Not to mention the vast majority of HK releases are of inferior video/audio/subtitle quality, as well as their 'real credentials' are largely suspect]
So... if licensed in HK, doesn't my momney go to the creators. As for ADV, although I was originallyu in the US, I am now in the UK, so does what U said still apply?
I appreciate that you're trying to make a good purchase, as well as one that will guarantee the rightful owners of the distribution rights and creators get their fair share of their hard work.
I posted some other notes on another thread on this subject (http://www.christiananime.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1871), and you can read more (and talk) about it there. In short I'll just say this to answer your question:
ADV does own the US (and probably all of North American) distribution of RahXephon, and this stipulates that they are the ONLY Legal Distribution company with the rights (direct from RahXephon's production agency, BONES). Anyone else distributing copies of this title under any other distribution agency is esentially conducting illegal activity, and/or is highly ignorant of US distribution law (not as if that would save them in a US court if they were caught).
Hong Kong does have legal distribution agencies that sell their own copies of stuff, like RahXephon, and though it's technically 'legal' to purchase from them online, think about this: does it really help the companies in the US to buy from foreign sources they aren't earning money through? Not to mention the vast majority of HK releases are of inferior video/audio/subtitle quality, as well as their 'real credentials' are largely suspect]
So... if licensed in HK, doesn't my momney go to the creators. As for ADV, although I was originallyu in the US, I am now in the UK, so does what U said still apply?
Being a Christian makes me a different otaku; Being an otaku doesn't make me a different Christian!
-
wiggins - Posts: 613
- Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:42 am
- Location: London
wiggins wrote:Um... I'm in the UK, not in the US... so does that still apply?
Sounds to me like it would be very hard to get the licensed American dvds. Remember that hardly any anime is licensed over here in the UK, because the market isn't so strong as America. As a result, if it was me, I would get the Hong Kong dvds.
-
Straylight - Posts: 2346
- Joined: Mon May 26, 2003 12:00 pm
- Location: Manchester, UK
Regardless of the region you live in (North America, Pacific, UK, etc.), it's usually the rule for fansubbers and other pro-anime fans in that region to respect the fansub distribution and licensed titles for that area, and use the fansubs they have to ONLY *promote the products for licensing* and not just to compile a large anime collection and therefore avoid the purchase of said anime.
Buying materials that are clearly from a pirated/bootlegged source is something the vast majority of fansubbers (like myself) would avoid, especially when you appreciate where that money goes (to further encourage the bootleggers and pirates to keep continuing their nefariousness), versus where the money SHOULD go, if you really were face-to-face with the anime creators in an anime convention.
But, as this issue of buying anime gets into the murky realm on personal ethics, I'm leaving the final judgement on these things up to you all.
Nevertheless, I'll at least shed light on the following:
1) Actively purchasing anything (not just anime) over the Internet is ultimately up to the buyer, and therefore puts upon them the responsibility of choosing the right place to send their hard-earned money.
2) Not every vendor is as honorable as the next. Use good judgement, do your homework, and read reviews and feedback on the vendors (where possible) to determine if the money you're sending them is worth what they're selling you. At the very least, this will likely result in saving you some money buy shopping around.
3) If you really want to make sure the money you spend is supporting an industry or brand label (read: anime studio), then buying a licensed product though a MAJOR SELLER (Amazon.com, buy.com, bestbuy.com, etc.) or direct from the manufacturer (or the direct distributor that works directly with the manufacturer or production) is the best way of ensuring this.
4) One usually gets what they pay for.
I have my own personal convictions on where and what I purchase, and though I don't list them specifically here (and thereby making myself look like I'm trying to force my own standards on the rest of you), I'll at least offer a generalization of them that you can read and make your own call.
Hope this helps.
Buying materials that are clearly from a pirated/bootlegged source is something the vast majority of fansubbers (like myself) would avoid, especially when you appreciate where that money goes (to further encourage the bootleggers and pirates to keep continuing their nefariousness), versus where the money SHOULD go, if you really were face-to-face with the anime creators in an anime convention.
But, as this issue of buying anime gets into the murky realm on personal ethics, I'm leaving the final judgement on these things up to you all.
Nevertheless, I'll at least shed light on the following:
1) Actively purchasing anything (not just anime) over the Internet is ultimately up to the buyer, and therefore puts upon them the responsibility of choosing the right place to send their hard-earned money.
2) Not every vendor is as honorable as the next. Use good judgement, do your homework, and read reviews and feedback on the vendors (where possible) to determine if the money you're sending them is worth what they're selling you. At the very least, this will likely result in saving you some money buy shopping around.
3) If you really want to make sure the money you spend is supporting an industry or brand label (read: anime studio), then buying a licensed product though a MAJOR SELLER (Amazon.com, buy.com, bestbuy.com, etc.) or direct from the manufacturer (or the direct distributor that works directly with the manufacturer or production) is the best way of ensuring this.
4) One usually gets what they pay for.
I have my own personal convictions on where and what I purchase, and though I don't list them specifically here (and thereby making myself look like I'm trying to force my own standards on the rest of you), I'll at least offer a generalization of them that you can read and make your own call.
Hope this helps.
<>< DanekJovax :2) ><>
-
DanekJovax - Posts: 345
- Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:52 pm
- Location: Richmond, KY
Hey Wiggins, what's the URL for the particular DVD set you're asking about? I'll check it out.
<>< DanekJovax :2) ><>
-
DanekJovax - Posts: 345
- Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:52 pm
- Location: Richmond, KY
http://www.fun2000.net/dvd/rahxephon.htm
The site doesn't look like much, but the service (as I've seen through e-mailing the retailer, is fast. He responded fairly quickly to my e-mail inquiries)
The site doesn't look like much, but the service (as I've seen through e-mailing the retailer, is fast. He responded fairly quickly to my e-mail inquiries)
Being a Christian makes me a different otaku; Being an otaku doesn't make me a different Christian!
-
wiggins - Posts: 613
- Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:42 am
- Location: London
Definately an HK bootleg... if you decide to go ahead and purchase it, it's your decision. However, judging by the fact that there are only three disks, it's safe to assume that each disk contains somewhere between 8-10 episodes. That's not going got be very good for the video quality, as the more episodes that are crammed onto a dvd, the more the quality lessens.
-
Azier the Swordsman - Posts: 3109
- Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 10:00 am
- Location: Earth
Honk Kong dvd's
Last edited by Fsiphskilm on Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm leaving CAA perminantly. i've wanted to do this for a long time but I've never gathered the courage to let go.
-
Fsiphskilm - Posts: 3853
- Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:00 pm
- Location: USA
well if i were in your shoes,i would go ahead and get the cheaper subbed collection. I second chris4150's thought on the dubbing dilema. although personally, I would watch the subbed version if i bought the adv collection anyways. The american dubs can stray pretty far from the original japanese interpretations if you ask me. Though this is not always the case. pretty much they way i do it is buy it if its available in the states and buy overseas if its not currently available. Alot of the titles i own aren't currently available on the american market. See,if i was a smart man,i would buy all my anime off the foreign market and save myself loads of cash. But,of course,i'm not a smart man XD.
-Tenjou Tenka Yuiga Dokuson-
-
senjutsu - Posts: 89
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 7:27 pm
- Location: Dayton Oh
wiggins wrote:http://www.fun2000.net/dvd/rahxephon.htm
The site doesn't look like much, but the service (as I've seen through e-mailing the retailer, is fast. He responded fairly quickly to my e-mail inquiries)
It's good that the site gives quick service, but I did a little digging on that particular box set:
Here's another place showing the same box set, with a little more information:
http://animediscount.net/item.php?anime_id=00021
The vendor listed here is "AV", and though it isn't listed in the Pirate FAQ (http://www.digital.anime.org.uk/piratefaq.html), I suspect it's a new moniker for the long-standing Video Animation label, or some other knock-off making it 'seem' to be an ADV title. With the english/chinese subtitles, I suspect it's likely the person doing the subbing was less english and more chinese. This makes me cringe a little.
A classic example is when I remember seeing a Yu Yu Hakusho bootleg that had insanely bad english subtitles - "Yuusuke needs home to you go to. You too?" was one of more notable flubtitles I remember making my head spin. I later heard that the english was derived from a portuguese person who also worked on a portuguese sub track on that set. Ick.
This particular case may not be what's happened with this RahXephon box set, but I'll be happy to put my money on the fact it's likely... very likely... to be a bootleg of some sort.
Ja ne.
<>< DanekJovax :2) ><>
-
DanekJovax - Posts: 345
- Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:52 pm
- Location: Richmond, KY
The scientific method," Thomas Henry Huxley once wrote, "is nothing but the normal working of the human mind." That is to say, when the mind is working; that is to say further, when it is engaged in corrrecting its mistakes. Taking this point of view, we may conclude that science is not physics, biology, or chemistry—is not even a "subject"—but a moral imperative drawn from a larger narrative whose purpose is to give perspective, balance, and humility to learning.
Neil Postman
(The End of Education)
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge
Isaac Aasimov
Neil Postman
(The End of Education)
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge
Isaac Aasimov
-
Technomancer - Posts: 2379
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:47 am
- Location: Tralfamadore
OK! Now I'm really in a dilemma! I want to do the right thing (which I'm not sure what it is since I'm in the UK and apparently its not licensed here (?)), but... the price... oh the price! It slike $30 v.s ADV's $140!!! And ADV's is probably edited from the original (Am I trying to convince mytself to get the HK DVDs?) . Help!
Another thing... I found some Getbackers DVDs on that same site. Getbackers hasn't been licensed by and US or English company as far as I know. So... what would be the right thing to do in this case? Is there any other legal way to get Getbackers either subbed or dubbed in English?
Another thing... I found some Getbackers DVDs on that same site. Getbackers hasn't been licensed by and US or English company as far as I know. So... what would be the right thing to do in this case? Is there any other legal way to get Getbackers either subbed or dubbed in English?
Being a Christian makes me a different otaku; Being an otaku doesn't make me a different Christian!
-
wiggins - Posts: 613
- Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:42 am
- Location: London
Since there's no compelling reason for you to buy from the North American distributor, don't. Find out who has the license for Hong Kong or Singapore or whereever and buy from there. I'm not certain what the prices are for the Japanese distribution, but you might want to try there as well.
The scientific method," Thomas Henry Huxley once wrote, "is nothing but the normal working of the human mind." That is to say, when the mind is working; that is to say further, when it is engaged in corrrecting its mistakes. Taking this point of view, we may conclude that science is not physics, biology, or chemistry—is not even a "subject"—but a moral imperative drawn from a larger narrative whose purpose is to give perspective, balance, and humility to learning.
Neil Postman
(The End of Education)
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge
Isaac Aasimov
Neil Postman
(The End of Education)
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge
Isaac Aasimov
-
Technomancer - Posts: 2379
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:47 am
- Location: Tralfamadore
An ideal solution is to find a fansub IRC channel or bittorrent site, and download off there. Only really possible with a broadband connection, but the great thing in this case is that you don't pay any money at all. If you want to be extra legal you can delete the fansub off your PC when the anime gets licensed at no monetary loss 
Use Google to search for things like "anime, bittorrent, irc, fansub"
btw, to Wiggins, broadband in the UK is only a little more expensive than dialup nowadays, and I highly recommend that you get it/persuade your parents to get it if you don't have it. Excuse - it frees up the phone line.. you can still make and recieve calls whilst online
Use Google to search for things like "anime, bittorrent, irc, fansub"
btw, to Wiggins, broadband in the UK is only a little more expensive than dialup nowadays, and I highly recommend that you get it/persuade your parents to get it if you don't have it. Excuse - it frees up the phone line.. you can still make and recieve calls whilst online
-
Straylight - Posts: 2346
- Joined: Mon May 26, 2003 12:00 pm
- Location: Manchester, UK
Nice Djnoz! lol. Anyhow, I already have Broadband. Unfortunately, like my dell, it is S - L - O - W! (seriously!) I used to download fansubs. Problem was I got too attached to them and didn't want to delete them (I still have them), so I have decided to shift to buying DVDs (Decision made like two weeks ago). 
Thanks Everyone for all your help.
I've finally come to a conclusion! I think I will get getbackers and Gundam Seed on DVD from HK, since I can't find english dubbed or subbed anywhere else except from fansubbing groups. As for Rahxephon... well I've wrestled myself to go the legal, and hopefully morally right way - ADV. Besides, on AnimeOnDVD.COM, there is an article about some convention and apparently ADV's license on RAHXEPHON extends to the UK... Sigh! Bye bye money! *money sprouts wings and starts to fly* Flap! Flap! Flap! 
Any positive/ negative comments/ remarks are still welcome (You could say this decision is kind of tentative, but its there for now) so keep on posting, so I can decide if I've made a good decision or not.
If anyone disagrees or find something that says Gundam Seed and Getbackers are licensed and can be obtained with English dub/sub, please tell me.
Man! I sure do have a tough time making decisions about cash, don't I? 
Thanks Everyone for all your help.
I've finally come to a conclusion! I think I will get getbackers and Gundam Seed on DVD from HK, since I can't find english dubbed or subbed anywhere else except from fansubbing groups. As for Rahxephon... well I've wrestled myself to go the legal, and hopefully morally right way - ADV. Besides, on AnimeOnDVD.COM, there is an article about some convention and apparently ADV's license on RAHXEPHON extends to the UK... Sigh! Bye bye money! *money sprouts wings and starts to fly* Flap! Flap! Flap!
Any positive/ negative comments/ remarks are still welcome (You could say this decision is kind of tentative, but its there for now) so keep on posting, so I can decide if I've made a good decision or not.
If anyone disagrees or find something that says Gundam Seed and Getbackers are licensed and can be obtained with English dub/sub, please tell me.
Man! I sure do have a tough time making decisions about cash, don't I?
Being a Christian makes me a different otaku; Being an otaku doesn't make me a different Christian!
-
wiggins - Posts: 613
- Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:42 am
- Location: London
Thanks for that Aussie link, Techno! I like that site almost as much as the FAQ page I use a lot. MillyFan needs to know this one too. ;2)
<>< DanekJovax :2) ><>
-
DanekJovax - Posts: 345
- Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:52 pm
- Location: Richmond, KY
Oh, here's a response from one of the writers of the Anime FAQ page concerning that RahXephon DVD box set:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Yes, DVD set you point me too is indeed a bootleg.
I've seen bootleg AV DVDs before.
"Animation Video" does indeed seem to be another name for Video Animation,
however, I haven't managed to get enough details about this "company"
I hope this is of help.
Kind Regards
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Yes, DVD set you point me too is indeed a bootleg.
I've seen bootleg AV DVDs before.
"Animation Video" does indeed seem to be another name for Video Animation,
however, I haven't managed to get enough details about this "company"
I hope this is of help.
Kind Regards
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
<>< DanekJovax :2) ><>
-
DanekJovax - Posts: 345
- Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:52 pm
- Location: Richmond, KY
Thanks! As I said before, I'll go with ADV's Rahxephon DVDs.
Do you know if there is any way to get Gundam Seed and Getbackers legally?
Do you know if there is any way to get Gundam Seed and Getbackers legally?
Being a Christian makes me a different otaku; Being an otaku doesn't make me a different Christian!
-
wiggins - Posts: 613
- Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:42 am
- Location: London
Hmm... Gundam Seed and Getbackers aren't currently US-licensed titles, so you'd have to hunt down legally licensed sellers in Japan, Taiwan, or HK, if not elsewhere.
<>< DanekJovax :2) ><>
-
DanekJovax - Posts: 345
- Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:52 pm
- Location: Richmond, KY
Ack! My bad:
Gundam Seed *is* licenced by Bandai, as of an aug 8th announcement at Otakon:
http://www.animeondvd.com/licenselist/G.php
But as there's no release anytime soon, I'll bet fansubs are still available in many places.
Gundam Seed *is* licenced by Bandai, as of an aug 8th announcement at Otakon:
http://www.animeondvd.com/licenselist/G.php
But as there's no release anytime soon, I'll bet fansubs are still available in many places.
<>< DanekJovax :2) ><>
-
DanekJovax - Posts: 345
- Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:52 pm
- Location: Richmond, KY
27 posts •
Page 1 of 1
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 206 guests