does anyone else hate it that Christian items you find in the store arevalways called "religious"?

[Peanut]

I actually just read something that said, true Christianity is the opposite of Religion, Religion is finite man trying to reach an infinite God, while Christianity is and infinite God reaching down to earth to touch man. I thought that was really neat and really true

But that isn't true at all. Or at the very least it's only true of certain religions. I know Greek/Roman paganism for example definitely had a bunch of deities who were total jerks and people tried to gain their favor and who knows if the gods would listen or not. But there are other religions such as Islam or Bahá'í that are certainly just as much God reaching down with love to man just as Christianity is.

It depends on what the quote PandaPop is referencing is specifically talking about. If its just general human/deity relationship, then yes, you are right. If its about how humanity gains salvation then I think its a pretty accurate description for just about every religion. Even for the Bahai, "salvation" is works based. Heaven and Hell are states of being that you can slip in and out of based on how you apply the virtues taught by God. True Christianity differs from this in that it teaches that God is the one who has to provide for salvation and there really is nothing man can do on his own to repair the relationship and draw near. Obviously, there are Christians and Christian sects that don't really follow this but this is already super off topic so I won't say anything else on it.

[PandaPop]

But that isn't true at all. Or at the very least it's only true of certain religions. I know Greek/Roman paganism for example definitely had a bunch of deities who were total jerks and people tried to gain their favor and who knows if the gods would listen or not. But there are other religions such as Islam or Bahá'í that are certainly just as much God reaching down with love to man just as Christianity is.

Oh just realized I made my post sound way more serious than it was, first I was just joking about the label, playing on what Otaku wrote (should have put this face ). lol also should have separated from quote, since the quote had nothing to do with that it was just a side comment about this whole thread in general. Anyway, the quote wasn't actually directed at religion in general, but religion vs relationship, when referring to what Christianity truly is (which is why I put it in this thread). I actually agree with everything you said haha. I know people from other religions that are very much about having a relationship with God, my personal opinion is that they will never reach God without the belief in Jesus and his sacrifice for us, but that's a whole other conversation that isn't appropriate for this conversation lol. Hope that make more sense

[PandaPop]

True Christianity differs from this in that it teaches that God is the one who has to provide for salvation and there really is nothing man can do on his own to repair the relationship and draw near. Obviously, there are Christians and Christian sects that don't really follow this but this is already super off topic so I won't say anything else on it.

Pretty much exactly what the quote was saying lol, except that it was directed specifically at Christianity. Also agree about the Christians and Christian sects not following it, I actually almost started to write about that but like you realized how off topic it was haha! Pretty much this conversation could go in five hundred different directions because religion is just so broad and Christianity for that matter.

[Nate]

If its about how humanity gains salvation then I think its a pretty accurate description for just about every religion.

Even in Christianity works are important, not that you get into Heaven by your works or anything, but the Bible speaks at length at how a good tree produces good fruit, and a tree that produces no fruit is worthless, as well as someone who tells a person in need "I wish you well" but does nothing cannot be saved by such faith.

By the way, Islam basically says that rules are less important than your relationship with God, and that if following a rule would cause conflict with your fellow man, to disregard that rule. I don't think even Christianity can make that claim, as sin is usually seen as always bad and that sin is inexcusable in any circumstance. This would make Islam less strict than Christianity in that sense.

I know people from other religions that are very much about having a relationship with God, my personal opinion is that they will never reach God without the belief in Jesus and his sacrifice for us

But you're saying it from the point of view of Christianity. A Muslim would say you can never reach God without belief in the prophet Muhammad and following the Five Pillars. Therefore, Christianity is still a religion, and this whole "relationship not a religion" thing is nothing more than a platitude that doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Christianity may be a religion that focuses heavily on having a personal relationship with God, but that's true of other religions too, so Christianity isn't really special.

[goldenspines]

Moved to Christian Growth Q&A since it seems more suited there. Apologies for not catching it sooner.

[Peanut]

Even in Christianity works are important, not that you get into Heaven by your works or anything, but the Bible speaks at length at how a good tree produces good fruit, and a tree that produces no fruit is worthless, as well as someone who tells a person in need "I wish you well" but does nothing cannot be saved by such faith.

That wasn't what I said though. I said the claim of Christianity is that God is the one who has to provide for salvation and there really is nothing humanity can do on its own to repair the relationship and draw near. Good works are important but no where in scripture post Jesus does it teach that a human can gain salvation by performing good works. They are more seen as the expected result of salvation not as a requirement for it.

By the way, Islam basically says that rules are less important than your relationship with God, and that if following a rule would cause conflict with your fellow man, to disregard that rule. I don't think even Christianity can make that claim, as sin is usually seen as always bad and that sin is inexcusable in any circumstance. This would make Islam less strict than Christianity in that sense.

...what? I have to ask for your source Nate and how they respond to the number of Islamic countries where anything from theft to atheism to homosexuality is punished with physical harm, imprisonment or death. My guess is they would state their interpretation is wrong which is the same case that can be made for Christianity based on verses such as "Let him who has sin cast the first stone" as well as Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:37, and Romans 2:1-3 to name a few. All of these remove the central thing that causes conflict (being judgmental) and can lead to embracing people where they are. If you accept the Islamic explanation you provided, you have to accept the Christian explanation since it achieves the same result and is built on the same logic. You could still try to say that Islam is superior based off of this principle because you are ultimately getting rid of the sin that you don't like from the system but I don't know of any Muslim who would actually be willing to go down that path since any rule can cause conflict with your fellow man in the right circumstance and by the time we are done, you are forced to hold nothing at all. Also, as you know, Christians do this too and with much higher success since correctly interpreting our holy book requires you to take the culture it was written into into account at the start of the process before translating it into modern culture. This is why we generally ignore Leviticus in our discussions on morality, because it was specifically written for ancient Jews either about to invade Canaan or in exile (depending on where you date the Pentateuch) and therefore contains laws on what to do if your livestock is killed by your neighbor.

[PandaPop]

Thing is religion is about beliefs and "practices", In Christianity you do not need practices only a single belief, our practices stem from our beliefs, a true belief like you said will produce good fruit, but the theif on the cross was never part of a religion he never had the chance to do a good work but in the last minutes of his life he believed Jesus was his savior and now hes in paradise with Jesus. Im not saying Christianity is not a religion though because it clearly is, nothing more to say about that, that argument is irrelevant. Point is its not "Relationship not a Religion" its "Religion without a Relationship is meaningless." Good works are like filthy rags if your not doing them for God. Like I said though I totally get what your saying about other religions believing in a relationship as well, but I guess I just see those religions a lot differently than you. I hear them say that but I don't see them practice it and they are always contradicting themselves on this subject, it also seems to always be a selfish relationship, but I cant blame them because in my opinion there is no relationship to be obtained, they are looking for it in the wrong place, even though I truly believe they want it. And of course I said that from the point of View of Christianity I am a Christian after all

Side note: Islam also condons lieing...

[mechana2015]

I'f you're going to start making claims about other religions, please source them so we're not just abstractly flaming other groups that the general public doesn't know anything about.

That being said, I think we're getting off topic here. This is about labels in a marketplace, to which I say... we should be about as offended as people from China should be about their noodles getting lumped in with the Japanese style noodles in the 'Asian' or 'Specialty' section of the supermarket.

[Nate]

...what? I have to ask for your source Nate and how they respond to the number of Islamic countries where anything from theft to atheism to homosexuality is punished with physical harm, imprisonment or death.

Well, while about a relatively minor thing, there is this verse:

"He has made unlawful for you that which dies of itself and blood and the flesh of swine and that on which the name of any other than Allah has been invoked. But he who is driven by necessity, being neither disobedient nor exceeding the limit, then surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful." - —Quran, Al-Baqara 2:173

In other words, "Don't eat pork, things that die naturally, or meat sacrificed to other gods. But if you're starving, then it's totally fine."

I know there's other verses that state it is okay to break certain laws to avoid offending others. I don't know a verse off-hand, but I have a Muslim friend who is very well-versed in the Quran and I'm sure she could get the verses for you if you really want to know.

My guess is they would state their interpretation is wrong which is the same case that can be made for Christianity based on verses such as "Let him who has sin cast the first stone" as well as Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:37, and Romans 2:1-3 to name a few. All of these remove the central thing that causes conflict (being judgmental) and can lead to embracing people where they are.

It's not comparable. Jesus didn't say it was okay for the woman to commit adultery (he tells her to go and sin no more). Islam states that if following a tenet of Islam will offend someone else, that you do not have to follow it, because Allah is a god of peace. Something along those lines. As far as I know, Christianity does not allow you to break a commandment in certain situations, barring overly legalistic interpretations of commandments (such as when Jesus was accused of violating the commandment against work on the Sabbath when he gathered wheat or healed people).

Also of note is that in Islam, "lesser" sins that you commit do not matter to Allah if you have not committed any "major" sins.

"If you avoid great sins (kaba’ir or dhanb) which are forbidden you, We will remit from you your evil deeds (sayyi’a)."
— Quran 12: 29

Last I checked, Christianity also does not say "If you commit a small sin it's okay as long as you don't commit any big ones," as the Christian view of sin is that it is a state of being that separates us from God. This holds true even in Christian denominations that hold that there are lesser and greater sins (such as Catholicism). In Islam, sin is seen as an act, not a state of being.

You could still try to say that Islam is superior based off of this principle

I'm not saying Islam is superior. I never even implied that. I was just saying that arguing that "God reaches out to us and gives us salvation" is in no way an exclusively Christian view, and thus does not support the "relationship not religion" nonsense.

I don't know of any Muslim who would actually be willing to go down that path since any rule can cause conflict with your fellow man in the right circumstance and by the time we are done, you are forced to hold nothing at all.

I think it is only minor things. Though again, you have to take into account the point of view of Islam, which is that sin is an act, not a state of being. Even the "seven deadly sins" in Islam are based on actions (example, turning away from an opposing army) and not a state of mind like the "seven deadly sins" in Christianity. In Christianity, if you think a lustful thought, even if you haven't done anything, it's still a sin. Islam is not like this.

So while you couldn't say, practice witchcraft so as not to offend someone (that is a major sin), if you commit minor sins, they don't matter so long as you do not commit major ones and have faith in Allah.

But He will overlook the bad deeds of those who have faith, do good deeds, and believe in what has been sent down to Muhammad —the truth from their Lord —and He will put them into a good state.
— Qur'an, sura 47, ayat 2

Also much like Christianity, Allah will not honor those who claim repentance merely to avoid punishment in the afterlife.

It is not true repentance when people continue to do evil until death confronts them and then say, ‘Now I repent.
— Qur'an, sura 4 ayat 18

Good works are important but no where in scripture post Jesus does it teach that a human can gain salvation by performing good works. They are more seen as the expected result of salvation not as a requirement for it.

I guess that all depends on your interpretation...I do see that you specified "post Jesus" which is good because it means I can't claim the parable of the sheep and the goats as a counter-argument. My question then would be so why is what some random dude said decades after Jesus ascended to Heaven somehow superior to what the Son of God himself said?

but the theif on the cross was never part of a religion he never had the chance to do a good work

He rebuked the other thief, did he not? That would qualify as a good work as far as I'm concerned.

But anyway...

"Religion without a Relationship is meaningless."

Okay, now that I can agree with. :3 But...

I hear them say that but I don't see them practice it and they are always contradicting themselves on this subject, it also seems to always be a selfish relationship

That's funny, because that's how I view a lot of mainstream Christianity. And I'll leave it at that, so as not to violate the rules.

[PandaPop]

Yeah we really did get way off topic, I don't think anything I have said has had anything to do with labeling . I will leave it at definitely "Religion without a Relationship is meaningless" and since I never actually addressed the issue, labeling has never bothered me haha, though until now pretty sure I never even thought about it! Anyway good talk Nate, I enjoyed it, I think its healthy to politely challenge each other, it always makes me think more about Gods word and move closer toward him

[mechana2015]

That was about your offhand remark about Islam, which I've never heard, and you didn't give any sort of backup for.

[Saiai]

I agree completely. I remember when that notion clicked. I was watching 'Another Perfect Stranger' with my dearest friend and Jesus on there said that he hated religion because it was all about trying to find a path to God, trying to earn one's salvation. When by doing that you completely cut Jesus out of the picture this way even the Holy Spirit. And I realized that I agreed with Him 100%
Its a very very fine line to walk when one says they hate religion. Its inevitable to not offend someone ((was that a double negative?))
Its a very easy way to lose friends and family when you stand with that. But that doesn't mean you don't stop loving them. Jesus hates religion but He's madly in love with the person, religion should not and does not define someone, relationships do.

[PandaPop]

Okay, here are some of the versus from th Qu'ran that are part of it, the real reason for it coming out though, was ex-muslims letting it be known, not all muslims agree with this though, they interpret the versus differently, especially depending on whether they are Sunni or Shiite, if you know anything about that, just different sects that war with each other in the middle east because of different interpretations. Also some will say they don't believe it, but all the while, they do.

"Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness (vain) in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing." Surah 2:225

"Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty." Surah 16: 106

" Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful." Surah 5:89

Basically it is, not frowned upon to lie (to non-believers ONLY) IF it will help Allah's causes, and if your heart is truly for Allah because he will forgive you. These versus are simply gaps, contradictions, or loopholes if you will, Its like saying don't lie, but if its to a non-believer and you know it wont harm any fellow believers and you feel it will help the causes of Allah and you know your heart is in the right place, then its okay cause Allah will forgive you. If anyone is interested you can look up Walid Shoebat, he is an ex-muslim who has spoken on this subject, I have heard him in person and he gives his experiances with muslims and lying. If you ever talk to any ex-Muslims you may hear them say, a Muslim can be extremely friendly, but all along they are lying to your face.

Also don't take this like I am on some Muslim hate trip, cause I'm not they are just people like the rest of us who deserve love and respect. My brother was a Marine in Iraq on the frontlines when the war was extremely heated, and he met some awesome Muslims who he really cared about, meanwhile he was fighting other Muslims.

[Nate]

Jesus hates religion

No he doesn't, that is completely false. Jesus was upset by people who were more concerned with legalism and shaming others under the guise of religion. Jesus upheld religion.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. - Matthew 23:23

Bolding mine. Jesus explicitly said that the Pharisees should follow religious laws, but to also keep in mind to care about others. Remember that Jesus was a Jew. It wouldn't make sense for Jesus to hate religion when he was part of one!

not all muslims agree with this though, they interpret the versus differently, especially depending on whether they are Sunni or Shiite

Yeah, it is important to mention that. Islam is not a single monolithic entity with no deviation in beliefs, just like how even Christianity is composed of different denominations that interpret the Bible in different ways.

Basically it is, not frowned upon to lie (to non-believers ONLY) IF it will help Allah's causes, and if your heart is truly for Allah because he will forgive you.

But how is this different from Christianity? Many Christians believe it is fine to lie in certain circumstances if your heart is in the right place. The usual experiment for this is "You are in World War II era Germany and hiding Jews in your house. The police show up and ask if you are hiding any Jews. What do you do?" Most Christians (not all, but most) will say it is perfectly fine to tell a lie to protect the lives of those people.

[PandaPop]

But how is this different from Christianity? Many Christians believe it is fine to lie in certain circumstances if your heart is in the right place. The usual experiment for this is "You are in World War II era Germany and hiding Jews in your house. The police show up and ask if you are hiding any Jews. What do you do?" Most Christians (not all, but most) will say it is perfectly fine to tell a lie to protect the lives of those people.

That may be true, but I would never say Christianity is similar to Islam, the bible does not condone lying.

[shooraijin]

I think we're getting pretty far afield from the original topic.

[Nate]

That may be true, but I would never say Christianity is similar to Islam, the bible does not condone lying.

Christianity and Islam are similar in some ways and different in other ways. Think of it like an orange and an apple. There are some similarities but also a lot of differences.

No, the Bible doesn't condone lying explicitly, but the Bible does speak at length of loving your neighbor, helping the less fortunate, and so on. That's why many Christians will say it is morally right and not a sin in the thought experiment of lying to Nazis to protect Jews. It is done out of love and protecting their lives.

To use another example, the Bible does not condone disobeying your parents. In fact, the Bible says to obey your parents. But if your parents command you to bow down to an idol and offer prayers to Baal, I think every Christian would say it would be morally right and not a sin to disobey your parents, even though the Bible commands you to obey.

I think we're getting pretty far afield from the original topic.

Yup, evolution of conversation is a fascinating thing. The human mind is funny like that.

[goldenspines]

That may be true, but I would never say Christianity is similar to Islam, the bible does not condone lying.

Christianity and Islam are similar in some ways and different in other ways. Think of it like an orange and an apple. There are some similarities but also a lot of differences.

No, the Bible doesn't condone lying explicitly, but the Bible does speak at length of loving your neighbor, helping the less fortunate, and so on. That's why many Christians will say it is morally right and not a sin in the thought experiment of lying to Nazis to protect Jews. It is done out of love and protecting their lives.

To use another example, the Bible does not condone disobeying your parents. In fact, the Bible says to obey your parents. But if your parents command you to bow down to an idol and offer prayers to Baal, I think every Christian would say it would be morally right and not a sin to disobey your parents, even though the Bible commands you to obey.

I think we're getting pretty far afield from the original topic.

Yup, evolution of conversation is a fascinating thing. The human mind is funny like that.

For those who can't take the hint, I'm pretty sure Shooby was implying for you and PandaPop to take your off topic conversation to PM to avoid carrying this thread farther off topic than it already is. Please do so.

[Yuki-Anne]

I agree completely. I remember when that notion clicked. I was watching 'Another Perfect Stranger' with my dearest friend and Jesus on there said that he hated religion because it was all about trying to find a path to God, trying to earn one's salvation. When by doing that you completely cut Jesus out of the picture this way even the Holy Spirit. And I realized that I agreed with Him 100%
Its a very very fine line to walk when one says they hate religion. Its inevitable to not offend someone ((was that a double negative?))
Its a very easy way to lose friends and family when you stand with that. But that doesn't mean you don't stop loving them. Jesus hates religion but He's madly in love with the person, religion should not and does not define someone, relationships do.

...so I take it nobody read my post where I actually quoted Bible verses which call Christianity a religion?

Seriously, this whole thing of creating a separation of religion vs. relationship is a pretty modern idea, and is a dichotomy I'm pretty sure none of the church fathers or Jesus himself even thought about. They talked about Christianity as a religion and in relational language. It's both things at the same time, which is part of what makes it beautiful. I don't see a point in splitting hairs. A spade is a spade, and Christianity is a religion.