Do you ever feel like...

[Xeno]

I'm just going to leave this here: "In Praise of Idleness" by Bertrand Russell.

[uc pseudonym]

I'd said my piece and I wanted to leave this thread alone, but my love of Bertrand Russell has brought me back. Several quotes identify why I think that essay is helpful in theory but less relevant in practice:

Modern technique has made it possible for leisure, within limits, to be not the prerogative of small privileged classes, but a right evenly distributed throughout the community. The morality of work is the morality of slaves, and the modern world has no need of slavery.
. . .
But without a considerable amount of leisure a man is cut off from many of the best things. There is no longer any reason why the bulk of the population should suffer this deprivation; only a foolish asceticism, usually vicarious, makes us continue to insist on work in excessive quantities now that the need no longer exists.
. . .
In the past, there was a small leisure class and a larger working class. The leisure class enjoyed advantages for which there was no basis in social justice; this necessarily made it oppressive, limited its sympathies, and caused it to invent theories by which to justify its privileges.

I'm a big fan of leisure, and I support Russell's vision of a world with substantially more of it. I just don't think that world will come about without a substantial amount of effort - and I'm sure it can't come about without us making changes.

On a global scale, most of us here (if not all) are a part of the small privileged class living off the excessive labor of the majority of the world. I'm not saying we don't deserve leisure, but it is completely and utterly impossible for the rest of the world to gain similar levels of it without something changing. For China and India to attain the US's standard of living, the world's resource consumption would have to be 12 times what it is now.* Even if that many resources were available, they wouldn't be nearly as cheap without part of the chain of production giving workers far less than they need.

*That's the big aggregate statistic. More details are in the source, Jared Diamond's Collapse.

I don't particularly like this site's method (and I don't know anything about the charities they support), but I think it gives a bit of perspective:
http://www.globalrichlist.com/

I've basically fallen into the usual guilt tactics that don't do any good, and while I regret that, I can't think of a better way to say what I mean. I also shouldn't have used absolute language earlier in the thread: realistically, meaningful actions are relatively uncommon and it's impossible to engage in them 24 hours a day. But I feel like all too often that's what I tell myself so that I feel better about not doing much of anything.

[Zarn Ishtare]

I feel the need to contribute to this thread, so, to wit:


My response to the general feeling here is that the answer, in general and in the specifics, is to strive. There is no natural plateau, only artificially imposed ones we create. For example, myself (because at the end of the day, I know myself best of anyone I know) Some could say I work very hard all the time; I'm an active duty Marine, yeah? But this is inaccurate. There are never ending heights to climb in each man's chosen profession, you don't really ever reach a peak; if I tried for special forces, for example, some could say that'd be the top; but wait, there's an even more special team made up of special people, and now I'm in that and oh wait there's more, another even more special thing! And on and on it goes. This holds true for any job or profession with any kind of hierarchy.


But the striving, the reaching, and the searching are the pleasure of the journey, for unlike our path to heaven (where the end goal is the point and the pleasure of the journey) the pleasure of labor, the pleasure of working towards something is the journey itself.

[Xeno]

The pleasure of working towards something can be good but it can also be bad. Good in a personal sense if its something you have set upon yourself to accomplish as a means of discovery. It can be bad if it abused by others to make you think that you should toil in labor endlessly because there is pleasure, honor, and nobility in your laboring. If you constantly labor and have no time to enjoy the fruits of it (leisure), then all the labor was in vain and the pleasure was consumed by others at your expense. Working hard just for the sake of getting somewhere, without that getting somewhere meaning anything beyond simply having arrived, is pleasureless labor, unless you genuinely enjoy working for the sake of work, and see no point in having time to socialize and refine other aspects of life and culture.

Unless I've just completely missed the point of your post Zarn.

On a global scale, most of us here (if not all) are a part of the small privileged class living off the excessive labor of the majority of the world. I'm not saying we don't deserve leisure, but it is completely and utterly impossible for the rest of the world to gain similar levels of it without something changing. For China and India to attain the US's standard of living, the world's resource consumption would have to be 12 times what it is now.* Even if that many resources were available, they wouldn't be nearly as cheap without part of the chain of production giving workers far less than they need.

I really want to continue along in discussion about this, but I'd immediately veer off into political discussion.

[shooraijin]

Let's not. Actually, I'm impressed this thread has stayed very well behaved.

[uc pseudonym]

Yeah, my post was probably close enough to the line as it is.

Xeno, PM me with at least your general position (I'm curious) and we can decide if it'd be worthwhile to discuss anything from there.

[dothackzero]

This is a terrible mindset to be in. Of course there's something "better" we could be putting our time towards. The problem is that there's always something. Like, it literally never ends. I spend half an hour watching anime. I guess I could be using that time to cook instead of go out to eat. But I guess I could be spending that time praying instead of cooking. Or I could spend that time doing grant applications. But maybe I should be going through this reading. But I guess I could be spending that time cranking out another chapter of my thesis. Or I could be volunteering with the soup kitchen. But I guess I really should be marking. Or maybe I should be working with the local riding association. But I guess I should be spending time reading the Bible. Or maybe I should be helping out at church? But maybe I should be doing that overseas instead.

It's a very easy way to ruin your life.

We really need a like button on here. Anyways, I don't go around trying to save humanity. What I am doing is just trying to go one with life enjoy it, and hope that people see Jesus reflected in me. Basically if someone asks about Jesus, I'll talk to them about it. Other than that, I just go on with life.

Basically, you'll burn out if you try to save world. Just let Jesus do the work for you, and just enjoy life and your fellowship with God.

[Crossfire]

Basically, you'll burn out if you try to save world. Just let Jesus do the work for you, and just enjoy life and your fellowship with God.

Bravo, that's a sensible comment if I've ever heard one. Honestly, I've been trying to take control of my own life in order to get "more active" in the community. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I've been doing it without asking the Lord for guidance. Recipe for disaster, that is.

[mysngoeshere56]

I've felt this way before, and still do sometimes. I might feel like I have nothing to do, but still feel like I should be doing *something* productive, and as such try to think of something productive to do even if I have no homework, reading, etc. to accomplish. Sometimes I feel as if I have nothing to do but watch TV or play games, but then feel torn between my decisions to the point that I can't even choose something fun to do, and instead waste time trying to make a decision in the first place. *shrugs*

[Cap'n Nick]

I say this as much to myself as anyone, because there's a lot in my life to criticize by these standards. I'm just not sure the answer is to reassure ourselves that it's okay and we don't have to change.

One million likes. Wait, you can't "like" on CAA?

[Vilo159]

I heard this poem today, and I think it has some relevance here. It errs more on Xeno's side with the "don't be afraid to enjoy leisure" point of view.

http://robertjhastings.net/

That's not to say its ok to just waste away our lives being lazy and enjoying life, but rather that it's easy to get caught up in things we think we should be doing, and it's ok to take a step back and enjoy what we've done already. So while I do think its good to ponder what we could be doing to improve ourselves and serve others, its ok to not constantly ponder those things too. I guess I take a middle ground.

Anyway, not totally relevant, but stil worht mentioning, I think.

[Dante]

Absolutely, my life is much better spent with friends, hiking, writing, camping, drawing or programming video games (and getting scritches if the opportunity presents itself). Yet, I can't deny that some people really do enjoy video games and television - especially if it's really cold where they live and they don't feel creative at this time.

Of course, I've done a great deal of thought about 'free time' or leisure as of late. The primary reason for this is because I now have a job - which consumes twelve hours of my life every day of the week in one way or another (8 hours of actual work and 4 hours for stuff caused by working). That stated, a huge number of personal worldviews are currently in major flux because I am putting them to the test.

Thing is - I don't want what most people want. With my education, I know that I can make $100k+ a year in five-ten years. That's if I actually wanted $100k a year. I don't. I know all too well that human beings once existed without money and that ultimately every positive thing we enjoy can ultimately be gained without it (but we simply haven't been taught how to gain these things in a society that only teaches us how to attain them through money).

What I DO want, is time and that's what relates to this thread and why so many of my worldviews are about to be tested. When I get my job review, I'm going to push for more time off in exchange for what I would normally gain as a salary increase at furlough rates (or even higher).

However, because this goes against the typical culture of this country, I realize that it could lead to conflict - some have even said I could be fired for making such a request (although claiming I'm lazy is silly, as I've made fairly large contributions to my company so far). If everything goes great, though, I'll have learned that I really do have a fair amount of control over my work-life balance and that my relative income really is a blessing that allows me to return back to a working schedule that humans originally enjoyed in prehistory without hunger or other negatives.

This should be fair too. After all, money is flexible, but you should only be able to buy as much of a person's time as they're willing to sell you in a free market system.

On the other hand, if I can't - that means that I essentially have no choice about how much money I do or don't make. It's essentially shoved down my throat unless I take a grocery store job, essentially making no use of my education whatsoever. Of course, this would also make me rather cynical towards money and so my work ethic would fall through the floor because what I desire can't be purchased (I can't work for what I want - so why bother?).

I don't know what the truth of reality is though (and that's still only the reality of this job in this country) so to learn, I must do an experiment. I'm hoping the results can be positive... But yeah, +1 for human leisure gained through hard work.

[Xeno]

Good luck with that and all, but as someone who has been playing the game for quite a while now, I can tell you that you're probably going to be disappointed. That free market system doesn't really exist in the way we're told to think it does. Businesses aren't inclined to let someone they've hired voluntarily reduce hours because while, yes they will be paying you less, they will loose productivity in the additional time that you're taking off. That equals bad business. A company is more inclined to increase monetary compensation and fringe benefits as an incentive for you to maintain or increase your productivity level. Also, the entire basis of the leisure concept is consumption. Everyone must work at least a base amount, and earn enough for sustainment PLUS funds for other things. This is what causes that system to work. If everyone were to just cut back to the point of working and making only enough to sustain themselves, then entire concept falls apart because the actual leisure part isn't accessible.

Society has always has some kind of trade system. It wasn't always as complicated as it is now, but there has always been at the core been a bartering system of kinds used for the transfer of goods and services, even if it was favors. It's nice to think that maybe one day everything would be free and everyone would be happy and live in peace and sing koombiyah, but that's not how things will work.

e: removed some political comments.

[DaughterOfZion]

You don't HAVE to take and use for yourself every penny you get. Why don't you quit whining about how society requires money, accept it, and use what money you get for a worthy cause? Take care of your bills or needs or whatever first and give everything else away to a charity. Don't be a baby about money. Take what you get and put it to use.

[Tigerchu]

Where I've come to on this issue is that entertainment is fine in moderation, but that it should be inspirational to me to be more Christ-like or be good for my mind. Life isn't long enough for wasted time.

Yeah, it's ok in moderation. If you feel like you're wasting your life you can study stuff on the internet. I'm studying languages from sites and from a library book. But, in moderation.

[Tigerchu]

You don't HAVE to take and use for yourself every penny you get. Why don't you quit whining about how society requires money, accept it, and use what money you get for a worthy cause? Take care of your bills or needs or whatever first and give everything else away to a charity. Don't be a baby about money. Take what you get and put it to use.

Umm, you don't need to give everything away to a charity. I don't mean to sound bad, but you can use it for yourself. Of course, charities are good. Yes yes...
I guess that's just my opinion, and God's got every right and ability to prove me wrong. But, yeah.



Quote: I've felt this way before, and still do sometimes. I might feel like I have nothing to do, but still feel like I should be doing *something* productive, and as such try to think of something productive to do even if I have no homework, reading, etc. to accomplish. Sometimes I feel as if I have nothing to do but watch TV or play games, but then feel torn between my decisions to the point that I can't even choose something fun to do, and instead waste time trying to make a decision in the first place. *shrugs* :Unquote

Get a guitar

[Xeno]

You don't HAVE to take and use for yourself every penny you get. Why don't you quit whining about how society requires money, accept it, and use what money you get for a worthy cause? Take care of your bills or needs or whatever first and give everything else away to a charity. Don't be a baby about money. Take what you get and put it to use.

Umm, you don't need to give everything away to a charity. I don't mean to sound bad, but you can use it for yourself. Of course, charities are good. Yes yes...
I guess that's just my opinion, and God's got every right and ability to prove me wrong. But, yeah.

She was responding to Dante's post where he was complaining about making more money than he felt was necessary. I know, I know, reading can be hard sometimes.

[Neane]

All the time but I never gave a dang. 19 years of procrastination habits are hard to break.

[Dante]

Why work for what I don't want? If I had money and was living a life I enjoyed, obviously I should try to make others happy - but if I don't want it then why take it? If I work fewer hours, that leaves more productivity for others to take, making it effective charity while granting me a life I enjoy (working for more then you want is like eating when you're stuffed and the food tastes bad - what idiot would want to?)

Of course, if I'm refused more time off, there are numerous personal forms of negative reinforcement I can implement. I can cut my own productivity on purpose (effectively forcing them to hire others to create the productivity if they want it) and/or I can outright refuse monetary increases without corresponding time. If I don't want to play games like that, I can even outright move to Europe, or save my income at a higher rate and then quit periodically.

I don't like the other options because it means that neither of us get what we truly want, but be damned if I'm going to let the other party have what it wants while it refuses to allow me to enjoy my life.

[Xeno]

Why work for what I don't want? If I had money and was living a life I enjoyed, obviously I should try to make others happy - but if I don't want it then why take it? If I work fewer hours, that leaves more productivity for others to take, making it effective charity while granting me a life I enjoy (working for more then you want is like eating when you're stuffed and the food tastes bad - what idiot would want to?)

Because this is how the system works. Others are not going to just pick up what they will perceive as you slacking off. To them it will appear as additional work that they have to do at no additional compensation -- because realistically, companies aren't going to double someone's salary for doing the job of two people, they just give them a little more money if not just a pat on the back.

e: it's also more expensive to hire two workers to do the job of one person, even if they're effectively splitting the hours and pay. Taxation, health, dental, vision insurance costs, retirement benefits, any kind of additional internal training that is needed. It all adds up to more money the company has to spend. So it's not really charity, it's offloading additional work onto other people who are already there.

Of course, if I'm refused more time off, there are numerous personal forms of negative reinforcement I can implement. I can cut my own productivity on purpose (effectively forcing them to hire others to create the productivity if they want it) and/or I can outright refuse monetary increases without corresponding time. If I don't want to play games like that, I can even outright move to Europe, or save my income at a higher rate and then quit periodically.

So you can slack odd and require your fellow employees to do a higher share of work (which I just covered) which would probably eventually lead to you being terminated or you could just quit every so often. Neither of these things reflect well when you try to apply for a new job because you ran out of your saved up money. Employers don't much care to be dictated to by their employees on how they will run their businesses. Many are willing to try to work out compromises and such, but the employee does not set the terms of the employment in this system.
You also mentioned moving to Europe. That is a option, only except that businesses are still largely run the same way, the only difference is that state welfare systems are more robust and willing to actually help people who need it. I'm not sure if those systems will fully apply to someone who just periodically quits their job because "meh, I don't like to work as much as they ask me to."

[Nate]

Xeno's right, despite stupid propaganda from right-wing talk shows, Europe is not really socialist in any form. They're all still capitalist, they just have better welfare programs and fairer tax rates, so you're not going to find jobs over there where you can just "do as much as you want" or whatever. They're going to be the same as jobs in the US (but with better benefits).

[goldenspines]

Whoa, this is getting way off track and into politics as well. Take that discussion to PM, guys.

[ClaecElric4God]

Well, maybe this topic's been overkilled, but I'd like to put in my two cents. I'd have to say, yes, I think most of spend way too much time entertaining ourselves. I know I do. But like others have said, entertainment in moderation (something I haven't achieved) isn't wrong, in my opinion. As long as said entertainment doesn't damage our spiritual condition, our relationship with God, or our Christian mindset. There are animes that, frankly, Christians shouldn't think about watching. Just like their are movies, books, activities, friendships, and other things we shouldn't get involved in. We don't realize how much something seemingly insignificant can affect us negatively. And even those things that aren't hurting us in that way can still be hurtful. As long as something isn't drawing you closer to God or helping you spiritually, it's honestly a waste of time. The only good thing I can say about it is, God wants us to be happy. He wants us to enjoy our lives. So He's willing to let us have these things that are of no value to Him, because our happiness is incredibly valuable to Him. But it hurts Him desperately when we give these things so much more time than they deserve and put Him on the back shelf, when we live in the world of entertainment and pull Him out for an hour or so every day. Our lives are short, and there is so much to do for God, and for the people who need to hear the gospel. So once again, I think it's "okay" as long as it's not morally or spiritually wrong, and as long as we do it in moderation, respecting our duties as Christians and children of God. And again, this is something that I'm having to work on too, so I'm not preaching at anyone. It's for each individual to decide how much of our time we want our Lord to have, and how much we want to please Him.

[Ante Bellum]

Honestly, I'd rather not have my Christian friends, few that they are, abandon me because I am, according to you, a "waste of time."

[Vilo159]

Honestly, I'd rather not have my Christian friends, few that they are, abandon me because I am, according to you, a "waste of time."

Friends aren't what I think he was considering a waste of time. Friends enrich us and make us better, they are relationships. NOT a waste of time. If you really are a waste of time to your friends, then either you or them isn't being a good friend. Of course, there are times where one can have bad friends, that are a bad influence on them and not worth their time. But if you think thats the case with yourself, then its probably something you need to work out.

I'm not saying you are any of those bad things, and I certainly doubt your friends consider you a waste of time; just ask them. So thats something you're gonna have to reconcile with yourself.

[DaughterOfZion]

The language in Claec's post seemed pretty clear to me

As long as something isn't drawing you closer to God or helping you spiritually, it's honestly a waste of time.

Something can go for anything, Ante, a rock, Chrono Crusade.

And Vilo, I don't really think Ante is saying what you think Ante is.
1. Ante was being sarcastic
2. Ante, being an atheist, wouldn't be drawing any christian friends closer to God or helping them spiritually, ergo, following only what claec said in his post, Ante would be wasting a christian's time because Ante isn't doing either of those things mentioned.

Obviously, what people say and what people really mean often has a giant disconnect, especially over the internet. I'm not saying one way or another what claec meant, just pointing out what was said at it's face value.

[Ante Bellum]

Honestly, I'd rather not have my Christian friends, few that they are, abandon me because I am, according to you, a "waste of time."

Friends aren't what I think he was considering a waste of time. Friends enrich us and make us better, they are relationships. NOT a waste of time. If you really are a waste of time to your friends, then either you or them isn't being a good friend. Of course, there are times where one can have bad friends, that are a bad influence on them and not worth their time. But if you think thats the case with yourself, then its probably something you need to work out.

I'm not saying you are any of those bad things, and I certainly doubt your friends consider you a waste of time; just ask them. So thats something you're gonna have to reconcile with yourself.

I...what?
DoZ is right, I was being sarcastic. Even if I were serious, I'm not sure how you managed to get THAT out of it.

[Vilo159]

The language in Claec's post seemed pretty clear to me

As long as something isn't drawing you closer to God or helping you spiritually, it's honestly a waste of time.

Something can go for anything, Ante, a rock, Chrono Crusade.

And Vilo, I don't really think Ante is saying what you think Ante is.
1. Ante was being sarcastic
2. Ante, being an atheist, wouldn't be drawing any christian friends closer to God or helping them spiritually, ergo, following only what claec said in his post, Ante would be wasting a christian's time because Ante isn't doing either of those things mentioned.

Obviously, what people say and what people really mean often has a giant disconnect, especially over the internet.

Oh, ok. I see. Sorry, I guess I wasn't reading close enough, or too quickly. My mistake.

[Nate]

There are animes that, frankly, Christians shouldn't think about watching.

Good thing I only actually watched them instead of thinking about it, or I'd be in trouble.

[Jingo Jaden]

..... Wow. CAA now is now officially a bad influence.