TheSubtleDoctor (post: 1417436) wrote: Ms. Rice is leaving the church, as in separating from church altogether. She does not intend to find another church. She plans on being a Christian totally apart from any church or organized or regularly meeting body of believers.
Nate (post: 1417460) wrote:Wow, Anne Rice feels exactly the same way I do. I understand her perfectly now because she's going through the same thing I'm going through. I guess I'm not alone after all!
Why didn't she just come out and say something like, "Hey, there are some so-called Christians who are not following Christ. They aren't true Christians." Rather, it seems like she is equating the televangelists and radicals whose actions she decries with the religion as a whole. Hurley's Logic calls this a hasty generalization.[quote="Cogzilla"]In her own words, "In the name of Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian. Amen.â€Cognitive Gear (post: 1417441) wrote:I think that there is a difference between abandoning the label of "Christianity" and leaving "The Church". The intention she seems to have is to separate herself from the group of people that, in her opinion, have become synonymous with the word "Christianity" while they are doing things that she believes to be against the teachings of Christ.
TheSubtleDoctor (post: 1417436) wrote:There is so very much I want to say but would get in trouble for saying. I will simply point this out (I think this is also what ich is getting at):
TheSubtleDoctor wrote:Why didn't she just come out and say something like, "Hey, there are some so-called Christians who are not following Christ. They aren't true Christians."
Rather, it seems like she is equating the televangelists and radicals whose actions she decries with the religion as a whole. Hurley's Logic calls this a hasty generalization.
She wants to distance herself from "Christianity" so she can live according to her commitment to Christ but without actually being Christian. Huh?
ich wrote:We are all weird and messed up. That is the point of grace.
If you don't like that negative connotation with Christianity, why did you call yourself one for a decade, even though we have the Crusades to our name?
The failure of the church are not just a modern thing, it is something we have struggled with since the beginning. The failures of the church are a large part of why a large deal of the New Testament was written, i.e. Corinthians.
There were also be souring the name of Christianity back then, too.
Htom wrote:Okay, so I get what she's saying, but it sounds almost self-righteous, her putting herself above Christianity in general.
You can't just make a blanket statement about Christianity based on a few Christians you don't like. It's unfair, short-sighted and foolish.
Nate (post: 1417460) wrote:Wow, Anne Rice feels exactly the same way I do. I understand her perfectly now because she's going through the same thing I'm going through. I guess I'm not alone after all!
Htom Sirveaux (post: 1417535) wrote:Okay, so I get what she's saying, but it sounds almost self-righteous, her putting herself above Christianity in general. She's not the only one who knows the difference between religion and faith. Millions of Christians, in fact, do. I understand being frustrated with overzealous, small-minded, loudmouth holy roller types, but anyone with any sense knows these are a minority. You can't just make a blanket statement about Christianity based on a few Christians you don't like. It's unfair, short-sighted and foolish. I applaud her for asking questions rather than just swallowing anything any Christian tells her, but she doesn't seem all that interested in getting answers.
Etoh*the*Greato wrote:Your disgust with organized Christianity stems from the bigotry expressed against your homosexual son?
Mr. SmartyPants (post: 1417580) wrote:I think we all need to know what she means when she's using the term "Christianity". It's clear by her context that she's not referring to it as a religious ideal, rather its practice in society.
The reason why she makes the blanket statement "Christianity" is because to many people, things like neoconservative evangelicalism IS the one true religion. To many people, that is the only Christianity that exists (or ought to exist).
Mr. Rogers (post: 1417536) wrote:The failure of the church are not just a modern thing, it is something we have struggled with since the beginning. The failures of the church are a large part of why a large deal of the New Testament was written, i.e. Corinthians.
There were also be souring the name of Christianity back then, too. Which is why Paul said, "for good or bad, I am glad the gospel is being preached".
Mr. Rogers (post: 1417528) wrote:The problem with leaving The Church altogether is that a relationship with God is not just all about me. God doesn't save just me, he saves US. For a book which further develops this idea, I would recommend Embracing Grace by Scot McKnight. All throughout the history of humanity, God did not just act through individuals, He acted through communities, churches, groups of believers and the like. If someone needs a break from the church for a bit to rehabilitate, fine I suppose, but this cannot be a permanent state for someone who wants to follow Jesus.
If she was mistreated, then that is something that needs to be dealt with. We are to love everyone regardless of anything. As Christians, though, we are called to live in certain ways. We can't just do whatever we want and then say "God loves us" as a way to not deal with things that really do need to be dealt with. God is good (we should pray for ourselves so that we really understand every aspect of what that means). When we come into genuine contact with God, our lives should begin to reflect that goodness.
The church is not a perfect place and, until Christ Himself returns, it will not be. That's where a little thing called Grace comes in. Grace is not only between God and me, it is also between me and others. Forgiveness is not just between God and me, it is also between me and others ("forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us"). I would like to recommend Embracing Grace a second time here.
Some of the core values of Christianity are not just to be lived between me and nonbelievers, they are also to be lived between me and fellow believers (unconditional love and forgiveness). I wonder how many of us really realize this. I am also to love my fellow believer. The letters of John are great for reviewing this point.
Guess what? Love and Grace are hard, but they are also what need to be in our lives if we have genuine faith.
The most unfair thing that ever happened was for a good God to be nailed to a cross and have the collective evil of the entire human race heaped on him. That is the same kind of love and forgiveness that God calls us to demonstrate in our own lives.
I can criticize the entire church for their failures, but I am the church and I can just as easily criticize myself. If you are a Christian, you are the church. There is no way around it. We need to fix the things in the church that are wrong, but at no point will I ever have the right to say "I'm better than those failures and don't need to be around them". I need God's love and forgiveness and new life just as much as the most obnoxious fundamentalist does.
If you want to really take the love of God to heart and bring it out of the abstract into reality, then go love the church.
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