Official Cartoon Network Thread!

[TheSubtleDoctor]

Why bring back Toonami, when it failed at the end. Toonami was great back in the day but around say 2006, it was a shadow of it's former self and the ratings went to crap on it.

Dude, you can't blame the format itself for that. The content CN was running during the Toonami block in '06 wasn't great: edited Prince of Tennis (an unfinished R1 release), 2 Pokemon shows, Wulin Warriors and MAR. In a word: ugh. The low ratings were a direct result of poor programming choices, not the Tonnami block as such.

As evidenced by the massive growth of the fandoms of DBZ, Gundam Wing and Tenchi Muyo (to name a few success stories), which is a direct result of these shows airing on Toonami, running anime every weekday afternoon is a great way to draw in viewers and create devotees to a product. They could run Hunter x Hunter, FMA Brotherhood, Darker Than Black and re-run Eureka 7 (all w/ appropriate, reasonable edits) and over time ratings would definitely go up. They really should have snatched up Heroman as well...that show needs to be on American TV.

On a different and even more off-topic note, I don't think CN's decision to go a more non-anime route was founded solely upon an unreasonable hatred for anime, though certain execs might not love it. I think the failure of their co-productions really scared them. Big O II didn't do nearly as well as they hoped, correct me if I'm wrong; and IGPX was a total flop. Surely these things factored into their decision somewhat...but, that's no excuse for not realizing that co-pros and licensing are different birds.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

I will say this...

Adventure time.

[Roy Mustang]

Dude, you can't blame the format itself for that. The content CN was running during the Toonami block in '06 wasn't great: edited Prince of Tennis (an unfinished R1 release), 2 Pokemon shows, Wulin Warriors and MAR. In a word: ugh. The low ratings were a direct result of poor programming choices, not the Tonnami block as such.

And do you know the reason why they had to go and do that? I know people on the inside of CN. So it is best that we don't go there, because you don't know the full story on the picks they made.

And really, I'm not going to get into it as no one is going to listen.

As evidenced by the massive growth of the fandoms of DBZ, Gundam Wing and Tenchi Muyo (to name a few success stories), which is a direct result of these shows airing on Toonami, running anime every weekday afternoon is a great way to draw in viewers and create devotees to a product. They could run Hunter x Hunter, FMA Brotherhood, Darker Than Black and re-run Eureka 7 (all w/ appropriate, reasonable edits) and over time ratings would definitely go up. They really should have snatched up Heroman as well...that show needs to be on American TV.

I can also tell that you never look up the ratings for some of these shows as well. DBZ, Gundam Wing Tenchi did well, but then they tried the other Gundam shows and they failed. Also, Eureka 7, did poorly in the ratings and AS was happy to drop that. They give that thing two runs and it didn't poorly, so why do you think that putting it on Toonami is going to do any better?

But I know that what I say, people are going to say that is not true as they are too blinded over anime that they can't seen something in front of them.





[font="Book Antiqua"][color="Red"]Col. Roy Mustang[/color][/font]

[MasterDias]

And do you know the reason why they had to go and do that? I know people on the inside of CN. So it is best that we don't go there, because you don't know the full story on the picks they made.

And really, I'm not going to get into it as no one is going to listen.

Actually, now you have my attention. If there was a good reason why CN Toonami seemed to go downhill the last few years, I'd be interested to hear it.

As far as ratings go, I've actually wondered if CN had unrealistic expectations from some of the shows they aired. If they were really thinking everything would be as successful as DBZ and Gundam Wing...well...

[ADXC]

Amen for Nate and Roy

[Tsukuyomi]

Since the conversation seems to be going on and them off topic (still staying on CN, so it's all good), how about we make this a "Official Cartoon Network Thread" XD?

Alright, you may now proceed =) Please remember to keep things civil ^^

[TheSubtleDoctor]

And do you know the reason why they had to go and do that? I know people on the inside of CN. So it is best that we don't go there, because you don't know the full story on the picks they made.

And really, I'm not going to get into it as no one is going to listen.

Actually, now that you have broached the subject, I (and others) would very much like to hear your story. I assume that those titles were some of the only ones they could afford to license, but I am totally interested in your behind-the-scenes perspective.

I can also tell that you never look up the ratings for some of these shows as well. DBZ, Gundam Wing Tenchi did well, but then they tried the other Gundam shows and they failed. Also, Eureka 7, did poorly in the ratings and AS was happy to drop that. They give that thing two runs and it didn't poorly, so why do you think that putting it on Toonami is going to do any better?

Two words: time slot. The difference b/w showing something on Toonami versus AS is a substantial one. Instead of showing E7 once a week, in the wee hours of the morning, if it was shown every weekday afternoon sandwiched b/w other quality shows, I'm confident that it would do better (not necessarily DBZ numbers, but better than its own AS numbers). The key to the success of DBZ was the timeslot, getting shown every week day. Gundam Wing also got a great timeslot and piggybacked off of DBZ's success.

As far as the other Gundam shows go, in addition to the poor timeslot, Seed was edited far too heavily and Seed Destiny has the reputation of being a poor show. I guess G Gundam is a different (and weirder) animal than Wing, and 08th MS Team doesn't have pretty boys. Yup, the reason Wing caught on wasn't the robots...it was the boys. Hence, one of the many reasons that the female presence in American anime fandom in the 21st century has outgrown the male presence.

But I know that what I say, people are going to say that is not true as they are too blinded over anime that they can't seen something in front of them.

Those are some strong assumptions. I can only assume you are speaking about a group that includes me, seeing as you quoted my post. I don't consider myself an unreasonable sort of fan, and I don't think you know me well enough to consider me one either. I will certainly give your claims a fair shake. If they are supported by reasonable, sound arguments, I will assent to them. First, though, you must present your opinions/facts. I, for one, am eager to hear them.

[Roy Mustang]

I had a long talk with someone at CN a few years ago at AWA about some of this as well getting to know others that work at AS.

After Gundam Wing aired, they felt like testing the waters in bring in more Gundam as, Gundam 79. 08th MS Team, Gundam 0080, Gundam 0083 and all of them didn't do well at all and the ratings are not even the ratings that they got for anime on AS.

Rep said that it was never really the timeslot that hurt them, but anime fans that told others to not to watch it, since it was edited.

At that point, Cartoon Network wanted to stay way from any Gundam title and why they let Sci Fi Channel pick it up Gundam 00.

Also, Bandai and Cartoon network started to have ill feelings with each other. But that was mostly with AS then Toonmai. Bandai has this view in their minds that their anime need to be showed first and at an early timeslot the the other anime titles that AS as showing. At one point, they told CN that they would pulled all of their anime off and give the tv rights to Sci Fi. After this, CN was like screw them and let Bandai give Sci Fi channel Gundam 00

when it came time to renew the series that did well, the tv rights for them were going to cost them too much that it wouldn't have been worth their wild.

The studios in Japan had this mindset that they should sell the tv rights at a high price. Back in the day at Toonami, they prices were low, but when Gundam Wing and a few other titles did well. It as time for them to renew the contracts, Japan studios wanted more money for the renew. CN tried to deal with them as best as they could, but in the end, they were still paying much for the rights to make any money off of it. That is why, when rating start to fall, they did everything to move it around and it just didn't work. The target range that the were going after were not watching and the anime fans kept turning off and telling everyone else to not to watch as well.

This cause them try and go after more titles that they wouldn't have to edit very much at all. Which were the ones that were in the target age range, but this turn them off even more and the anime fans as well.

At this point, CN was trying new ways with the block, but they were picking titles they thought the target range would like, but that failed.


One title that they thought would have been a good idea was Rurouni Kenshin and it failed in ratings. I remember that a rep said that they were so thankful that they only bought 50 something eps and not waste anymore money on that title.

Some people wounder, why they didn't show The Big O season two on Toonami. The reason was, they knew that the ratings that got for it on Toonami with the first season was because of the 18-34 range. So they felt like it was no point in even putting it on Toonami at this point and move season two to Adult Swim.

The last great year for Toonami was 2003 as they had hits with IGPX: Micro, Star Wars: Clone Wars and Justice League. The anime at that time didn't do well as .hack//SIGN, YuYu Hakusho, Rurouni Kenshin, Cyborg 009, Dragon Ball GT.

The only reason why they kept YuYu Hakusho one of the longest then others was they put too much money to waste on it, even if the ratings were bad and why they put it in 5 am slot. The ratings were a nightmare before it went to the 5 am slot.

Also, Naruto was never a hit really as much as people think other wise. Again, they kept showing it because they put too much money into it. When Naruto Shippuden came up to be showed on TV. Cartoon Network didn't even want to touch it because how burn they got with Naruto. Really Disney XD is not doing well with Shippuden and most people that are watching the show is because of CR.

Two shows that they wanted so bad were One Piece and Sailor Moon as they did well for them, but Toei Animation went with their lock up on their titles and made CN go look at other titles. At this point, the ratings were at a low and they were grasping straws at this point with titles. It was already made up that they were going to do away with Toonami, but they just didn't know when.

Also, you wouldn't believe the hate mail that CN and AS got back then from the edits. As one person told me, after they felt like they couldn't win the anime fans over for bring anime, is where the jokes started on AS about anime fans and like they didn't care about them. Really, Kim Manning at AS is a big anime fan and is one of the major reason why we still have anime on AS. The people at AS have felt like that no matter what they do, they are not going to make anime fans happy and in turn they poke fun at it.


Another mindset was since the anime there was not doing well on Toonami, they felt like that all anime should be showed on AS as they could run it close to uncut.

Another thing that happen was when Adult Swim became somewhat of their own network on CN. They said that any anime that want to Adult Swim couldn't show up else where on CN or Toonami.

This why Adult Swim add another hour next year in Jan. Also, there was some politics that went on that I can't talk about that also doom Toonami, but it wasn't a major role in the end of it, but it also didn't help.

I can say that one of the politics was they had too much high hopes for anime and Toonami that they got a bit too greedy with the ratings, when it first started and when it started to go down, they tried to pick this and that and the money they spent, the time that went into it and watch the ratings go lower and lower, it was time for them to pull the plug on Toonami. Even if they have a new management, they feel that would still be a waste of time and money to bring back Toonami.


[font="Book Antiqua"][color="Red"]Col. Roy Mustang[/color][/font]

[rocklobster]

What's ironic is that sometimes the edits weren't even CN's fault. For instance, iirc, the edits in Sailor Moon were all Cloverway's doing.
You know, I wouldn't be making such a big stink if Toonami was actually replaced by something worth watching. But they didn't.

[Nate]

What's ironic is that sometimes the edits weren't even CN's fault. For instance, iirc, the edits in Sailor Moon were all Cloverway's doing.

You don't recall correctly.

Cloverway's production actually was a lot closer to the original Japanese than DiC's dubs had been. There were absolutely no scenes cut out or edited from the Cloverway dubs, and all the original music was kept with the exception of the opening theme song (they kept DiC's theme song). They even went so far as to keep the original version of Azusa Nigou in episode 99 instead of dubbing it like they did with Ai no Senshi...though to their credit, they did at least dub Ai no Senshi instead of making a completely new song (like DiC did with most of the insert music).

They even kept the name "Hotaru" which is something DiC would NEVER have done.

However, there are two big changes. First was the insertion of American slang, which was really annoying, and the second was the making of Uranus/Neptune into cousins. The first was totally their fault, and I blame them. The second was NOT their fault, no matter how stupid it was. And yes, it was stupid, and I hated it. This is NOT Cloverway's fault, it is the fault of American culture's treatment of homosexuality. Keeping the original relationship between the two would have been a death sentence for the show, whether you like it or not, and it was a NECESSITY for them to do it. Do not blame Cloverway, blame America.

By the way:

"In addition to Cloverway's edits, Cartoon Network cut out 1–2 minutes of footage per episode to make room for more commercials when shown on their network. Occasionally, they made additional changes to skip visuals they believed were inappropriate. For example, an image of full rear nudity when Sailor Uranus detransforms was skipped.

Two episodes were skipped by Cartoon Network when the problem couldn't be solved. Episode 119 for instance was at first skipped because its monster-of-the-day was essentially naked, and thus deemed too risque for the show's target audience. In the series' second run, however, the episode finally aired, and solved the monster's revealing skin by digitally adding in a bikini to it."

Y'know, the same digital bikinis they used in Tenchi Muyo? That Cloverway had NOTHING to do with? Yeah. It was all Cartoon Network.

You know, I wouldn't be making such a big stink if Toonami was actually replaced by something worth watching. But they didn't.

Psst...helpful hint. Try reading the post that Roy posted just above yours. It explains everything!

[battletech]

Thanks for the info Roy. Looks like there is alot of blame to go around.

[rocklobster]

Another problem is the belief that because kids will watch anything, no effort needs to be made. As the Nostalgia Critic himself said, "Still no excuse." There's a lot of sophisticated shows that kids enjoyed, and many of them still hold up: Animaniacs, anyone?

[Roy Mustang]

There's a lot of sophisticated shows that kids enjoyed, and many of them still hold up: Animaniacs, anyone?

Animaniacs would be a bad example. Animaniacs were more love by teens and adult then kids as they got more of the jokes then the kids did.

It was one those shows that where pre teens watch it, but the major following were teen to adults. Still Animaniacs was a sophisticated show, just didn't go well with the younger kids at the time.

If you replace it with Ducktails or any of the 80's Disney cartoons, then that would have been true.


[font="Book Antiqua"][color="Red"]Col. Roy Mustang [/color][/font]

[Nate]

I think the problem is that most people on this site at least tend to view "pre-teen and teen shows" as "children's shows."

Batman: The Animated Series may be rated Y7 but that doesn't mean that that's the target age group. Just like how Naruto is rated T in the United States but it's a children's show in Japan more aimed at like 9 and 10 year olds.

And so they go off on this tangent about how "OUR CHILDREN'S SHOWS WERE QUALITY" except they weren't really for children at all, as you stated. Or will anyone sit here and argue that the "fingerprints" joke in Animaniacs was appropriate for and aimed at 7 year olds? Anyone? That's what I thought.

I'm so sick of people complaining about children's television shows. YOU'RE NOT CHILDREN. STOP WATCHING CHILDREN'S SHOWS. If you don't like them, MAYBE IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT A CHILD, WHAT A FREAKING REVELATION.

Now if you'll excuse me I have some Heartcatch PreCure to watch.

[rocklobster]

OK, time to resurrect this thread because I want to rant again.
Cartoon Network has failed again! How? By taking their hit show, Adventure Time, and scaling it down to fifteen minutes? Why? Because they want to put in a new show called Regular Show. And yes, the show is as stupid as its name. UGH! Whoever heard of a 15-minute show?
I swear, CN takes 2 steps forward, then steps back and falls on the banana peel.

[FllMtl Novelist]

But on a lighter note, there's new Generator Rex and Clone Wars this Friday!

[Nate]

UGH! Whoever heard of a 15-minute show?

Yeah! Who's ever heard of Bottle Fairy or Cromartie High School or Detroit Metal City or Dogtato or Eve no Jikan! Only stupid countries like Japan make 15-minute shows!

[Beau Soir]

I will say this...

Adventure time.

YES. SO AWESOME.

Also, I really liked both Flapjack and Chowder, until those shows ended recently-ish...

[Roy Mustang]

Well, you have some Adult Swim shows that were 15 minutes long and some are good and some were bad.


[font="Book Antiqua"][color="Red"]Col. Roy Mustang[/color][/font]

[MomentOfInertia]

OK, time to resurrect this thread because I want to rant again.
Cartoon Network has failed again! How? By taking their hit show, Adventure Time, and scaling it down to fifteen minutes? Why? Because they want to put in a new show called Regular Show. And yes, the show is as stupid as its name. UGH! Whoever heard of a 15-minute show?
I swear, CN takes 2 steps forward, then steps back and falls on the banana peel.

Adventure Time was made up of two 15-minute shorts anyway I don't see the problem.

[ShiroiHikari]

15-minute shows are NOTHING new. Cartoon Network has been doing it since Space Ghost Coast to Coast.

ETA: On a happier note, I just pre-ordered Dexter's Lab Season 1. At last!

[Sheol777]

Metalocalypse starts tonight.