What kind of "Christian" Anime do you want?

[KhakiBlueSocks]

[SIZE="4"][color="RoyalBlue"][font="Trebuchet MS"]Plain and simple:

Give me a Christian anime that doesn't beat me over the head with it. That is, I don't need the main character to be praying every other scene, wearing a cross, or listening to gospel music on her iPod. Just instill basic morals, cut the GRATUITOUS fan service and swearing and there you go. I don't want "Kingdom Chums: The Original Top Ten" but I don't want "Angel Sanctuary" either. [/font][/color][/SIZE]

[AnimeGirl]

I know a good example! If they were to make an anime out of Inkhana's "Game Plan!" that's the kind of anime I wanna see. ^_^

And for more intense, deeper story, Cal's "Heaven Bound", Splinter's "The Messenger", and Foxy's "Advocate Voice".

[Nate]

(sorry, but a she wouldn't carry the messege to guys as well)

On what basis do you make this statement? If it's on the basis of lust or something silly like that, I say it is possible to make a non-sexualized female character, even in anime. Look at Kino's Journey for an excellent example of this. If it's on the basis of "Guys don't want to watch a show where a female is the main character!" I can only say, where have you been for the past 20 years that anime has been popular in this country? If it's on the basis of gender discrimination ("Girls can't spread the Gospel as well as men can!") then I heartily invite you to read your Bible, specifically the stories of Deborah in the OT, and Paul's letters, especially where he mentions Junia, Priscilla, Phoebe, Euodia, and Syntyche (major props to uc for mentioning these on Corrie's LJ entry about a similar subject, which is where I got the names from).

Because if it's messege is corrupt then Christians will speak out against it, not promote it.

Oh MAN. The political debates I could start with this gem. But I won't. I'll just say I'd like to believe you but from what I've seen of the world, that's pretty far from the truth.

Overall, though, there might just be too much division in the Christian ranks to let this work.

But then again, considering how many denominations of Christianity there are, some Christian, somewhere is going to think they got something wrong, no matter how well-researched the creators were.

Rusty and Atria both bring up a very good point that I agree with. Christianity is far from a united religion, how many denominations are there again? Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Calvinist, Episcopalian...and those are just the big names, there's plenty of others besides these, and even the main ones get split into different denominations (one Baptist group might be different from another Baptist group).

The point being that it's pretty much going to be impossible to make something that appeals to all denominations simultaneously. Pretty much all anyone can agree on is this: Jesus is God's son, and He died on the cross, and got resurrected. That's it. Almost everything outside of that is up for debate in every denomination of Christianity and while sometimes a majority of them can agree on some of them (for example, almost all denominations believe in the Trinity), you won't get all of them to agree on anything except those absolute basics (and only because that's pretty much the required belief to call yourself a Christian, which is why Mormons can more or less get away with calling themselves Christian, although hardly any other denominations accept them as such).

As far as the original topic, I don't see why Christian anime is important anyway. There's far, far more effective ways of spreading the Gospel, and any attempt to make a Christian anime is at best going to turn out hokey and boring/preachy, or at worst, so far removed from reality that calling it Christian is almost an insult (example: any "Christian" anime that would involve magic/superpowers/reality warping/physically fighting demons with weapons).

I know what's going to come up now that I've said that is Narnia. "That has magic and reality warping and it's Christian!" To which I say, no, not really. Christians love Narnia and to be sure, it has a lot of Christian themes in it, but it's not really specifically Christian. C.S. Lewis, the guy who wrote them, said he set out at the beginning to just write a story. Not a Christian story, just a regular story, and the Christian elements just kind of pushed themselves in. So, it's (to me at least) kind of a stretch to call the Narnia series Christian books. They weren't written to be Christian books, and there aren't really any overt references to Christianity in them (there's hints and clues, but nothing is stated outright).

So really, what does it say that the most popular example of Christian fiction wasn't written to be Christian at all, and has its references to Christianity hidden unless you know where to find them, while other Christian fiction that was written to be Christian and is explicitly Christian is pretty much doomed to obscurity outside of Christians themselves?

Just a bit of food for thought.

Note that this only really touches on Christian fiction. Documentary style stuff, like I dunno, turning the book of Acts into an anime would be different from that, so I don't really include it. I'm going to assume that a Christian anime would really be a fictional work unless it was going to be like "The Bible Animated" or something, and that has its own problems. What I'm saying is that an anime based on historical facts (or what are accepted to be historical) would be a different situation that my statements wouldn't apply to.

[Midori]

I like to see that we all have different definition of "Christian Anime" here. I personally would like to see Anime that simply uses morals compatible with Christianity as a background rather than more Atheist or Buddhist morals. Not specifically for reaching out to non-Christian anime fans, but just to make me feel more comfortable. It doesn't have to always be an overt metaphor for Jesus's life you know.

Hmm, I'd give what I think is a good example of what I mean, but it's on the Do Not Discuss list. Oops.

[Rusty Claymore]

@Nate: The he rather than she thing. As I could be categorized as macho-type guy, I would naturally have a hard time looking up to a female as a role model. If I walked up to you and said, "Man, I wish I was like Kagome from InuYasha." you would know I finally lost it. Add to that the struggle of modern Christianity seeming girly (see the book, Why Men Hate Going to Church), there could be more materials for guys. The main (in what I would want in a C-anime) would have to be Male, but it does not exclude having a Female character of equal significance. In context of your example of gender descrimination, what I am really getting at is the opposite of what you stated. To me, at least, the traits and virtues of the Christian can seem almost natural to Females, and counter the nature of Males. I know this is false, but it is something I must re-affirm to myself frequently. I could also throw in that Paul had stuff to say about Females mentoring Males, but I can't provide the specifics atm.
Politics? I didn't think that statement had anything to do with Tyranny or Annarchy... In that statement I was thinking of major herecies. Jesus didn't really rise from the dead, He had kids with Mary Magdalene, stuff like that. And we are dealing with Christians here, not the world. XD. But yes, the degrees of saying, "It's okay if it gets people interested..." could nulify the movement.
I hope that clarifies. XD

(topic shift)And as some people are driving at, what alot of us would want from a C-anime is one that doesn't spend precious air time discussing Gaia or the Devonian peroid. Am I right?

[Davidizer13]

(topic shift)And as some people are driving at, what alot of us would want from a C-anime is one that doesn't spend precious air time discussing Gaia or the Devonian peroid. Am I right?

I wouldn't mind hearing about the Devonian period, if only for a mention of armored fishes.

Anyway, back to the discussion at hand. I believe that if you start jamming Christianity (or any message, for that matter) down peoples' throats in your story/movie/whatever, it'll turn people off not only to your work, but to your message as well. It goes back to what nearly everyone else has been saying: Put Christian themes into your work, but don't forget to write a good, compelling story that supports those themes; that makes people more willing to finish the series and see where you're going with it. I don't want to be subjected to 10 hours of simply, "Viewpoint A is good, and you should try it out," even if I do agree with viewpoint A; neither, I suspect, do most other people. So why should you subject other people to that?

We, as Christians, are called to spread the Gospel, but I believe we are also called to do the best we can at everything we do on Earth, and just because something's free of violence, sex and profanity doesn't mean it's actually watchable. (That was not an invitation to gratuitously add that sort of thing to your stories, but to write better stories in general, by the way.)

[rocklobster]

[quote="Davidizer13 (post: 1389196)"]I wouldn't mind hearing about the Devonian period, if only for a mention of armored fishes.

Anyway, back to the discussion at hand. I believe that if you start jamming Christianity (or any message, for that matter) down peoples' throats in your story/movie/whatever, it'll turn people off not only to your work, but to your message as well. It goes back to what nearly everyone else has been saying: Put Christian themes into your work, but don't forget to write a good, compelling story that supports those themes]
That's the point I was trying to make. You see, that's why I love Haibane Renmei. Even though technically it's not made by Christians, it still presents Christian ideals and does a great deal of leaving it up to you to accept them. And it even uses characters who are quite close to angels.

[CrimsonRyu17]

@Nate: The he rather than she thing. As I could be categorized as macho-type guy, I would naturally have a hard time looking up to a female as a role model. If I walked up to you and said, "Man, I wish I was like Kagome from InuYasha." you would know I finally lost it.

Someone needs to watch more girls-with-guns/blades. Not to mention that not all girls are girly and weak and only interested in prissy things. I think I'm a pretty good example but this isn't about me.

Also I could take offense and say "well, I'd want to see a female lead because I can't relate to guys much" and what if said C-anime did so?

Regardless, I suggest you meet some more girls.

[Nate]

I'll (probably) send a PM going into more detail on some of the off-topic/theological stuff, but I'll touch on a few things.

As I could be categorized as macho-type guy, I would naturally have a hard time looking up to a female as a role model.

The people of Israel had Deborah commanding their army. Ancient military men are I'm sure more manly and macho than you, and they had no problems following a woman commander. So...I don't buy that excuse, sorry.

That also seems slightly sexist because of what Crim said. In addition, why would a man have trouble looking up to a female role model, but women aren't supposed to have any trouble looking up to a male role model? That seems pretty sexist too, like "Men are so awesome, that men AND women identify with them and follow their example! But women are only good for leading other women."

And as some people are driving at, what alot of us would want from a C-anime is one that doesn't spend precious air time discussing Gaia or the Devonian peroid. Am I right?

You're wrong. The Devonian period is actually pretty sweet. That's when sharks became like the kings of the ocean! There's nothing that isn't cool about sharks being top dog.

And armored fish are really cool too. Dunkleosteus rocks! It was bigger than most modern sharks! Probably meaner too.

[Rusty Claymore]

@The Two Previous: I described what I, me, myself, not everyone else, would want in an anime, which is what the thread was about. I would rather look up to characters like Vash the Stampede and Kurogane. I am not sexist, and do you have any numbers for these "more girls" I need to meet? XD
But I didn't mean setting when I mentioned the devonian period. I meant spending time preaching Evolution and how the earth was better back then(even though everything ate everthing else back then, predators rule! XD). I specifically am referencing Ponyo, which I made the mistake of going into it thinking of My Neighbor Totoro and expecting a fantasy story about normal people. Never go into a medium of entertainment with expectations... you could ruin something you could potentially enjoy. >.<
Whether you PM or not is up to you, but I understand where you are coming from. It's you to whom I have misrepresented where I am coming from. But I don't think it is possible for me to be able to convey where I am coming from, simply because it'd have to include my life story and that would be too much personal info for the internet. XD

[TheSubtleDoctor]

Two points:

(1) One vibe that I am getting from most posts in this thread is that they fear that Christian anime, unlike your run o' the mill secular anime, would turn people off by pushing Christian beliefs down the audience's throat. While I believe that forcing the Christian message (one with an exclusive claim to objective truth) might turn away some folks, I wholeheartedly disagree with the underlying assumption that "regular" anime is not also guilty of forcing certain world views onto its audience. Anime makes a friggan living throwing a message in our collective faces such as the importance of the act of personal choice (regardless of what that choice is), the unknowability of absolute truth, the death of God, the isolation of humanity from transcendence, and the need for one to create one's own meaning in life. The difference b/w these two kinds of works is not that one preaches and one doesn't, but that one's preaching is far more palatable to the world at large.

(Note: I am not making a value judgment about having a story with a message or even a story with a forced message. I am simply stating that, in my opinion, anime in general is not guilt-free when it comes to forcing a message.)

(2) Another vibe I have picked up on is the desire for a Christian anime to affirm "Christian morals" as opposed to, say, Hindu, Buddhist, or atheist ones. I am a bit puzzled by this. What principles does anime (in general) advocate as moral goods that Christianity doesn't also? Granted, I haven't seen every single show out there, but most anime I have seen tend to promote unselfishness, trust, loyalty and love. Such promotion seems to be a trait of all the major world religions as well as most individual atheists. Now, one might point out that many anime shows encourage the act of revenge as value it as a good. However, I'd argue that for every Gungrave there's a Rurouni Kenshin; that is, for every show promoting revenge, there exists a show discouraging it. Perhaps this mixed bag is indicative of a struggle within the modern Japanese soul about the moral aspects of revenge...but this is a tangent. My point is that it is not necessarily in moral philosophy where Christianity differs most from atheism and the major world religions but in metaphysics (what we believe about reality as a whole).

[goldenspines]

My main problem with "preachyness" is this. If a Buddhist came up to you and starting preaching about the greatness of his religion to you, a christian, would you sit there and listen through it?

I think it's better to preach the gospel in art forms the same way Christ did. Through parables. I want to see a Christian anime, not drowned in scripture or christian symbols, but one that actually tells a story and has value but still points to Christ.

Adding onto this point, even though it was made a page ago, would you buy something that preaches at you? I personally would not, whether it was preaching Christianity or otherwise. Most people wouldn't even watch it because it's not worth their time to be preached at when that's all they've heard for most of their lives (concerning any contact with Christianity they've had)
Though, it seems many of us in this thread are misunderstanding definitions of words or verses in the Bible (such as that one that some Christians and beyond use to promote anti-feminism. Instead of pursuing that issue, look at this verse and move on: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:28-29&version=NIV)

Back on the previous topic, like someone mentioned before (it may have been Nate), there are so many denominations in the Christian religion, it would make your head spin and they all think they are "right" on the way they live their Christian lives. Obviously, we all are going to bump heads when it comes to what should be required as "Christian morals". Therefore, accept that some people can only eat vegetables and move on (referencing this chapter in Romans: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14&version=NIV )
(note: If you have any discussion about the verses I linked to, please respond to me via PM, not in this thread)

That being said, let's steer this away from theological debate land and respect that we won't always see eye to eye.

[ShiroiHikari]

My point is that it is not necessarily in moral philosophy where Christianity differs most from atheism and the major world religions but in metaphysics (what we believe about reality as a whole).

This is a very good point.

I've seen a lot of anime, and a lot of them out there do have their own sense of morality, even if it doesn't always line up perfectly with Christianity. (And there are a lot that don't have much of a sense of morality at all, but I don't watch those kind. XD)

I personally don't need or want Christian anime, because I find lots of positive themes and messages in anime already.

[Radical Dreamer]

Adding onto this point, even though it was made a page ago, would you buy something that preaches at you? I personally would not, whether it was preaching Christianity or otherwise. Most people wouldn't even watch it because it's not worth their time to be preached at when that's all they've heard for most of their lives (concerning any contact with Christianity they've had)
Though, it seems many of us in this thread are misunderstanding definitions of words or verses in the Bible (such as that one that some Christians and beyond use to promote anti-feminism. Instead of pursuing that issue, look at this verse and move on: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:28-29&version=NIV)

Back on the previous topic, like someone mentioned before (it may have been Nate), there are so many denominations in the Christian religion, it would make your head spin and they all think they are "right" on the way they live their Christian lives. Obviously, we all are going to bump heads when it comes to what should be required as "Christian morals". Therefore, accept that some people can only eat vegetables and move on (referencing this chapter in Romans: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14&version=NIV )
(note: If you have any discussion about the verses I linked to, please respond to me via PM, not in this thread)

That being said, let's steer this away from theological debate land and respect that we won't always see eye to eye.

I really wish I had more to add (or had more time to have more to add), but you summed up a lot of good things here! I may come back later and expand some more on what I'd like to say, but for now, good post! XD

[SailorDove]

Interesting thread.

Here's my 2 cents for how to make a successful "Christian" friendly anime, (Artistically & financially speaking.)

1) Script is devoid of any & all "on the nose" dialog as well as cliche and predicable plot developments.

2) No fan service, occult & new age messages.

The first point is a lot harder to do even for secular screenwriters & filmmakers. Are you familiar with Story structure? If not, let me know by pm & I'll send you some screenplay book links.

[blkmage]

There is a severe lack of discussion about the purpose of such a creation, the target audience, and how to contextualize whatever you were doing for the appropriate culture of the target audience.

[Nate]

I wholeheartedly disagree with the underlying assumption that "regular" anime is not also guilty of forcing certain world views onto its audience.

I think there's a difference between upholding good values, and preaching a belief system that is almost wholly unknowable outside of a single book. We can look at the world and say "Man, all this crime and violence, people should just love each other and treat each other right." Having an anime that reinforces that is different from an anime that says "Hey, you have to believe in this carpenter who died 2,000 years ago or you're going to Hell! No, we can't prove Hell exists, just trust us on this one!"

I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but there is a very stark difference between an anime that talks a lot about love, friendship, teamwork, etc., and an anime that preaches a religion. They're not exactly the same.

I think, really, what most people are saying here is we don't want an anime where it's like Jack Chick tracts, where one person says "I sure do love Jesus!" and the other character goes "Jesus? Who's that?" and the first character starts preaching a sermon. That really is boring to be honest (not to mention poor writing).

Another vibe I have picked up on is the desire for a Christian anime to affirm "Christian morals" as opposed to, say, Hindu, Buddhist, or atheist ones. I am a bit puzzled by this. What principles does anime (in general) advocate as moral goods that Christianity doesn't also?

I could go into detail but I fear that even mentioning the issues could cause theological debate and bring us further off-topic, but I think it's safe to say that the content of a lot of anime isn't exactly compatible with Christianity and leave it at that. They aren't hostile to Christianity, don't get me wrong, but Christianity doesn't particularly mesh well with it.

Well, one principle I can mention that won't start an argument is that many Japanese games/shows/anime have the message of "We don't need a god to tell us what to do, we control our own lives!" I trust I don't need to explain how that doesn't really work with Christianity.

anime I have seen tend to promote unselfishness, trust, loyalty and love. Such promotion seems to be a trait of all the major world religions as well as most individual atheists.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Even without explicit mention of Christianity, a show that focused on the power of love and upheld it as good would be promoting Christian values/morals, because love is the greatest of all things in the universe, greater even than faith. Because if a person has a faith that can move mountains, but has no love, they are nothing. It says a lot that before Jesus preached, he fulfilled the physical needs of people. Fed them, healed them, and so on. Jesus knew that you show love to someone first, THEN preach. Having an anime that starts out preachy is going to turn people off, sorry, that's just how human beings work.

So I don't see how promoting love and friendship even without mentioning Christianity is a bad thing. It can sow seeds. We can't make a seed grow, we can only plant it and take care of it, but it isn't us that makes it grow.

[blkmage]

(not to mention poor writing)

This, this, this]a thousand times, this[/I].

[mechana2015]

There is a severe lack of discussion about the purpose of such a creation, the target audience, and how to contextualize whatever you were doing for the appropriate culture of the target audience.

This is the real question. Most Christians think about a story that has THEM as the target audience, but they presume that the purpose will be reaching lost people, rather than just telling a story that appeals to people who are already Christians. Due to this mental disconnect (a ridiculously common one, most blatantly evidenced in Chick tracts) most Christian art has a issue of not having the intended results, often receiving rave reviews in Christian circles and getting panned outside of them, for this precise reason.

To make that even more complicated the contextualization has to be researched. A great example of failed contextualization is the D&D Chick tract. He portrays a nearly all female D&D group! I hate to enhance the stereotype here, but in this case (especially around the time of the tracts original release) A female in a D&D group was a little odd. Gamers took one look at the tract and laughed it off because it showed neither the game they played, nor the reality of the world in which they existed. It would be like portraying all Japan as wearing kimono's all the time, or aftica as full of elephants and people in loincloths. A mistake in this area alone can sink the most well intended story with accusations ranging from 'poorly researched' all the way up to 'racist'.

Even harder, once we realize how we can effectively write from a christian standpoint and have it reach the target audience intact, with purpose of communicating Christian ideas to said target, is persuading the old guard Christian marketers and media people (and for that matter the christian population at large) that this is the way to do things, rather than the old 'hit 'em o'er th' head with th' bible til the repent or flee' method.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

This reply will not contribute to addressing blkmage's concerns, nor will it answer The Doctor's question. Still...I press onward:

I think there's a difference between upholding good values, and preaching a belief system that is almost wholly unknowable outside of a single book. We can look at the world and say "Man, all this crime and violence, people should just love each other and treat each other right." Having an anime that reinforces that is different from an anime that says "Hey, you have to believe in this carpenter who died 2,000 years ago or you're going to Hell! No, we can't prove Hell exists, just trust us on this one!"

I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but there is a very stark difference between an anime that talks a lot about love, friendship, teamwork, etc., and an anime that preaches a religion. They're not exactly the same.

In a lot of anime aimed at our demographic, Nate, (and even shows targeting a younger audience), the reasons given for the value of love, friendship, teamwork, etc are considered important are because the characters in the show have chosen them to be important. A certain bond of friendship will be vitally significant to a character because that character has picked out that bond as something to anchor his life, to imbue it with meaning in a world devoid of the inherent meaning that religion and/or tradition give to it (because, as you put it, "we don't need 'em"). I find the above instance to be quite common in anime, but it is merely one instantiation of anime putting forth as preferable a specific worldview. I do not believe that just because this worldview is not a Christian one it is rubbish, far from it. There is a lot of value to studying it and much to learn.

I think, really, what most people are saying here is we don't want an anime where it's like Jack Chick tracts, where one person says "I sure do love Jesus!" and the other character goes "Jesus? Who's that?" and the first character starts preaching a sermon. That really is boring to be honest (not to mention poor writing).

Sure. I totally grant that and am in agreement. I do, however, believe that the notion that anime somehow does not promote a specific metaphysic, a particular way of looking at the world, is a flawed idea.

Well, one principle I can mention that won't start an argument is that many Japanese games/shows/anime have the message of "We don't need a god to tell us what to do, we control our own lives!" I trust I don't need to explain how that doesn't really work with Christianity.

Yes. This is exactly the sort of thing I was speaking about above. However, I don't think it is a statement about morals but one about metaphysics. I read it as a statement about the way things are, not how they should be: something like, "God doesn't exist and human beings are autonomous." The moral goods that anime often promotes, like love of family, kindness to others, the sanctity of life, cut across most of the major religions of the world and are principles upheld by many non-religious people.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Even without explicit mention of Christianity, a show that focused on the power of love and upheld it as good would be promoting Christian values/morals, because love is the greatest of all things in the universe, greater even than faith. Because if a person has a faith that can move mountains, but has no love, they are nothing.

I totally agree, sir. That is the point I was attempting to drive at by claiming that the moral principles that anime promotes, such as love, are Christian ones (as well as Buddhist ones, Islamist ones, etc.)

It says a lot that before Jesus preached, he fulfilled the physical needs of people. Fed them, healed them, and so on. Jesus knew that you show love to someone first, THEN preach. Having an anime that starts out preachy is going to turn people off, sorry, that's just how human beings work.

I'm not sure if you are responding to me here, but I never advocated a "preachy" anime.

So I don't see how promoting love and friendship even without mentioning Christianity is a bad thing. It can sow seeds. We can't make a seed grow, we can only plant it and take care of it, but it isn't us that makes it grow.

I am quite sure I didn't imply that it was a bad thing. In fact, as my posts claim, I believe that anime does in fact promote these things. I went out of my way to state that I wasn't making a value judgment about the promotion of values in stories.

[Midknight74012]

If I had tons more research material, I bet I can totally knock you off your feet with my idea for a Christian-themed anime.

[Hohenheim]

[SIZE="4"][color="RoyalBlue"][font="Trebuchet MS"]Plain and simple:

Give me a Christian anime that doesn't beat me over the head with it. That is, I don't need the main character to be praying every other scene, wearing a cross, or listening to gospel music on her iPod. Just instill basic morals, cut the GRATUITOUS fan service and swearing and there you go.[/font][/color][/SIZE]

In total agreement with this.

[Nate]

Mech brings up a good point, that I think needs to be mentioned again. Ask Christians what a Christian anime should do and probably the biggest response is "Lead people to Christ." Which is all well and good. The problem comes in when you try and make an anime with, let's say, lost people who aren't Christian, who swear and are violent and have sex, and then Christians get upset because "the content is bad."

We can't have it both ways. This is how unsaved people act; if we're going to be realistic, there's going to be bad language, there's going to be sex, there's going to be lust, violent tempers, all that stuff. When Christians complain about that content, it shows that their main purpose is not to reach lost people to teach them about Christ, it's that they want G-rated family-friendly entertainment for themselves. Which, there is nothing wrong with that! But at least be honest about it.

Besides honestly an anime true to the Bible would kind of necessitate an R-rating, at LEAST. Passion of the Christ is a pretty good example of how really portraying Biblical events works content-wise (regardless of how it is as a movie).

Now back to Doc!

Ina lot of anime aimed at our demographic, Nate, (and even shows targeting a younger audience), the reasons given for the value of love, friendship, teamwork, etc are considered important are because the characters in the show have chosen them to be important. A certain bond of friendship will be vitally significant to a character because that character has picked out that bond as something to anchor his life, to imbue it with meaning in a world devoid of the inherent meaning that religion and/or tradition give to it

I don't buy it. In Sailor Moon, Super Sentai, Precure, all these shows, the theme is "No one can do anything on their own; if they try, they won't succeed. It's only by working together that someone can accomplish all things" with a healthy dose of "Friendship is a strong bond that helps us work together!" They're not pushing any worldview or "metaphysics." They're saying the basic truth of reality. No man is an island, and friends help us through life. It has no bearing on souls, afterlife, gods, or anything of the sort. It is a statement of human nature. In addition, there are many times during these kinds of shows where they will show a single character trying to go it on their own, only to be beaten, until they rejoin their friends. Their companionship always ends up absolutely vital to beating the big baddie.

On the other hand, Christianity is a religious belief that does address metaphysics. Things that can't be proven.

In other words, saying to you "Hey, I have a grandma who lives in Indiana" is a statement of fact, it isn't me trying to push my "worldview" on you. Saying "My grandma in Indiana is a voodoo priestess and if you don't do what I say she'll curse you" IS pushing something on you. Similarly, saying "Hey, friends are important and people should work together" isn't trying to push a "worldview," it's stating the basics of humanity that anyone can open their eyes and see. "Accept Christ and you'll go to Heaven" is not the same as that. Pretty basic.

I do, however, believe that the notion that anime somehow does not promote a specific metaphysic, a particular way of looking at the world, is a flawed idea.

Oh, I'm not saying no anime does that. There's quite a few anime that do present specific ways of looking at the world. I'm just saying that promoting love and friendship as good things is not doing that.

However, I don't think it is a statement about morals but one about metaphysics. I read it as a statement about the way things are, not how they should be: something like, "God doesn't exist and human beings are autonomous."

Except in at least some anime/games/shows, that isn't true at all. In many of them, god DOES exist, but he's kind of a jerk and he toys with the lives of humans, so the humans get mad and decide they don't like god anymore and they're going to kick his butt, because "Mankind ill needs a savior such as you."

This is, probably, in part because of the history of Christianity within Japan, which is tied in with Nobunaga Oda. The Japanese started to see Christian missionaries as more or less "invaders" to their society and way of life (which is why for about 250 years in Japan, Christianity was actually outlawed, and the government hunted down believers). To the Japanese, they didn't need "our" God, so He was an enemy to them. It wasn't until the late 1800s that Christianity became legal again. Still, with Shinto having been the official state religion for so long, Christianity was still viewed as something foreign and outside (remember, Japan doesn't really care for outsiders), and that attitude still extends to this day.

So Japanese works do have this notion that yeah god exists but he's just as mortal as anyone else (just really powerful) but you can still beat him. In this case, it does fall into the realm of "metaphysics" (because god DOES exist and he is really strong and has awesome powers) but mankind has said hey, god kinda sucks, so let's go kill him and live our own lives and control our own destinies because we don't need him. In fact, I think "Killing God" is probably a trope...lemme see. Yep, here we go:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidYouJustPunchOutCthulhu

List of anime that has characters killing gods...not just really strong monsters, but GODS is there, along with quite a few JRPGs. So there you go.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

In Sailor Moon, Super Sentai, Precure, all these shows, the theme is "No one can do anything on their own]other[/i] hand, Christianity is a religious belief that does address metaphysics. Things that can't be proven.

In other words, saying to you "Hey, I have a grandma who lives in Indiana" is a statement of fact, it isn't me trying to push my "worldview" on you. Saying "My grandma in Indiana is a voodoo priestess and if you don't do what I say she'll curse you" IS pushing something on you. Similarly, saying "Hey, friends are important and people should work together" isn't trying to push a "worldview," it's stating the basics of humanity that anyone can open their eyes and see. "Accept Christ and you'll go to Heaven" is not the same as that. Pretty basic.

You are right. Childrens' shows are a different kettle of fish, no doubt about it. But, when I said "younger audience" I didn't mean youngest audience . Sure, Sailor Moon teaches us that friendship is important. But, many times, when we encounter a show with even a little depth, a show that explores why these values are important, I believe that most of the answers that anime tends to offer are more in line with what I wrote earlier. I also believe that the philosophy that informs the selection of promoted values pervades the work more subtly than we realize.

Except in at least some anime/games/shows, that isn't true at all. In many of them, god DOES exist, but he's kind of a jerk and he toys with the lives of humans, so the humans get mad and decide they don't like god anymore and they're going to kick his butt, because "Mankind ill needs a savior such as you."

So Japanese works do have this notion that yeah god exists but he's just as mortal as anyone else (just really powerful) but you can still beat him. In this case, it does fall into the realm of "metaphysics" (because god DOES exist and he is really strong and has awesome powers) but mankind has said hey, god kinda sucks, so let's go kill him and live our own lives and control our own destinies because we don't need him. In fact, I think "Killing God" is probably a trope...lemme see. Yep, here we go

You interpret this trope more literally than I do. I have always thought that this sort of thing symbolized overcoming a repressive, damaging and outdated myth (important: not my own thoughts!) in favor of the existentialist credo "Let's stand on our own two legs/feet!" So yeah, rather than actually committing deicide, I view such a trope as an attempt to say, "Hey! Let's clear away this old story. We don't need it! It is totally repressive...like some controlling jerk made it up!" The notion of God's actual existence doesn't come into play for me.

However, having said that, your very insightful historical reading of the trope is fascinating. I never thought about putting the ideas into that context, but tit totally makes sense. Thanks for sharing, man!

[The Doctor]

My response to Japan seeking to make faith based anime, if the individuals making it are not saved and are just doing it for the cash?

God can use anyone, even the fallen, to communicate His messages.

Take note that the very Christian film "Chariots of Fire" was made by rabid, God-hating atheists. But you'd never know that by just watching the film, you'd have to research the filmmakers behind it.

[Midknight74012]

Lemme put it this way, don't try to sugar coat everything about Christianity.

[Bobtheduck]

Not preachy, but there and clear. Preachy is when it overtakes the story at unnatural times. Not preachy means it fits where it's put. Also, I'd rather it not be introduced right away and scare off potential viewers. Call me sneaky, but people are naturally opposed to the Gospel. If they're warmed up to it via an engaging story, then so much the better. That won't happen if you have the message right in the opening credits or first 10 minutes.

This will have its opposition, and people will hate you for it... People accused BRUCE ALMIGHTY OF BEING PREACHY, and that movie was pure Hollywood silliness. Hey, just mentioning you're a Christian when you're a secular artist will get people protesting you, and not just Christians...

[Midknight74012]

I have to agree with that.

[Alcuinus]

Not preachy, but there and clear. Preachy is when it overtakes the story at unnatural times. Not preachy means it fits where it's put.

Oi! Thanks, Bobtheduck! That is exactly the way I see it. It can and should be in there if it is a part of the plot, and we don't need to feel condemned, either, if we use our God given talents to the fullest but don't manage to fit "get saved" in every second scene.

[Nate]

You are right. Childrens' shows are a different kettle of fish, no doubt about it. But, when I said "younger audience" I didn't mean youngest audience . Sure, Sailor Moon teaches us that friendship is important. But, many times, when we encounter a show with even a little depth, a show that explores why these values are important, I believe that most of the answers that anime tends to offer are more in line with what I wrote earlier.

And I disagree entirely, because for the...I believe third time? Reinforcing values that anyone who can open their eyes and SEE is completely different from talking about a god that people cannot see. When you say something like this:

A certain bond of friendship will be vitally significant to a character because that character has picked out that bond as something to anchor his life, to imbue it with meaning in a world devoid of the inherent meaning that religion and/or tradition give to it

I'm assuming you mean when a character will say something like "To protect this person...that is the reason that I exist! Without this person, I have no purpose!" or something along those lines. No, I don't believe that in any way is incompatible with Christianity. Unless I'm wrong, most of us believe that God has purpose for our lives, yes? It's entirely likely that a Christian would have the mindset of "The purpose I exist, the purpose God created me, is to be with this person." In fact, isn't that the whole idea behind soulmates and marriage?

You have yet to say anything, anything at all, that somehow proves that saying "Love is good" is equivalent to saying "There is a giant invisible man in the sky." You offer no evidence to your viewpoint, whereas I have offered plenty for mine. If you can offer even one example of how promoting good values is equivalent to religion, I'll concede defeat. But you haven't made even the slightest convincing argument except for "I say so." That doesn't really work.

I also believe that the philosophy that informs the selection of promoted values pervades the work more subtly than we realize.

Oh absolutely. When a person writes a story, part of that person will be in the story whether that person consciously attempts to do it or not. Like I said earlier with C.S. Lewis, he said he had no interest in putting Christianity in the Narnia books when he started writing them, but it worked itself in as he wrote.

I have always thought that this sort of thing symbolized overcoming a repressive, damaging and outdated myth (important: not my own thoughts!) in favor of the existentialist credo "Let's stand on our own two legs/feet!" So yeah, rather than actually committing deicide, I view such a trope as an attempt to say, "Hey! Let's clear away this old story. We don't need it! It is totally repressive...like some controlling jerk made it up!" The notion of God's actual existence doesn't come into play for me.

Hmm, okay. That's probably true. I think I sort of got confused as to what you were saying. Though actually that works out fine, because that actually supports my point more than it does yours. A Christian anime would be saying "God is real, He exists, He is not a metaphor or a concept but a real living thing." Most anime, when god is involved, are using it as a metaphor or a concept, so that would again prove my point that putting forth religious beliefs in a show is not the same as promoting good values.