Authors trying to be DEEP and complex?

[Momo-P]

It never really dawned on me until the other day, but...has anyone else noticed the sudden "lets act like we're deep and philosophical" in anime and manga? Yanno, those scenes where a character will start talking about a specific subject (human behavior, God, life, death, etc.) and just...totally go off? Usually it consists of the character acting like some calm and collected expert and the scene going on for a lengthy period of time. After so many minutes of confusing and boring you, they finally wrap things up and it takes you awhile to even realize "wait a minute, none of that even made any sense!" or "...how did we get from this subject to that subject? Was there even a point to all this?"

One of the first titles that seems to come to mind is Death Note (because the constant "thinking to self" scenes), but even so...has anyone else noticed more and more characters doing this junk now? Originally it was kind of cool because it fooled you into feeling like the story was much more deep and complex than it really was, but...sheesh. Now I'm almost finding myself a bit irritated with some of it. I'm a huge fan of the Higurashi and Umineko stories for example, but as much as its author rambled on before, I've noticed some of the stuff being even more troublesome than it was in the beginning. In one scene you read a character's diary to figure some information out, but then you're also treated to the character rambling something along the lines of...

"If God has no restrictions, then He also loses the restriction of His own 'meaning'. Even the notion of life and death disappears, even the meaning of the existing disappears, He reaches the limits of the zero."

...ya. Because I'm so sure God--the one who created everything, knows everything and can do everything--is going to "lose the notion of life and death" and "lose the meaning of His existence" because He has no restrictions. Now as if this "brilliant conclusion" made no sense to begin with, it becomes much more annoying when you realize it seemingly has no reason for even being mentioned. It's like they only add this stuff to make the story seem more deep and complex or show off to the fans "look at me, I'm a really amazing writer!" I mean I can't be the only one who's tired of watching drawn out scenes only to discover "ok...I already knew all this/none of that made any freaking sense/please show a part of the story I care about."

[Nate]

Blame Evangelion, it started the whole "deep and complex confusion" fad in anime.

(Note: It's a do not discuss title, I'm not mentioning it to be discussed, merely mentioning it to clarify the origin of it.)

[LadyRushia]

Eh, I haven't seen too much of that, but I wouldn't say that stuff is pointlessly thrown in there. Have you ever read any philosophy? It's all about going on and on and on anyway, XD. These characters may come to ridiculous conclusions, but I find that whenever I run into these ideas my own faith is confirmed. Plus, I think it's good to understand where other people are coming from, even if their ideas seem absurd (read Nausea XDDD).

Like I said, I haven't seen much of what you're talking about, or I might not be bothered by it. Some series may needlessly put this stuff in there, and others may not.

[Robin Firedrake]

I'm not going to actively attack it but when it ISN'T played for a joke it can get annoying. When something like that is followed by another character saying "I have NO idea what you just said." Or something to that effect, I find it rather hilarious.

[minakichan]

I think you need to remember that there are actual people writing these anime and sometimes they might have a sort of ulterior motive-- not necessarily a good or bad one, but I think everyone wishes that people sort of thought the same way they did. Writing a manga and including one's own "philosophy" is sort of a good way to attempt to inspire people to believe in it or spread it.

I use the term vaguely, but "philosophy" could also just be some way of thinking or an outlook on life.

[Fantasy Dreamer]

When something like that is followed by another character saying "I have NO idea what you just said." Or something to that effect, I find it rather hilarious.

XD Where as I can think of a few examples of what robin mentioned above, I'm not sure I've seen what you mean, Momo. But I do know what you mean. And where as it might not seem to have a point in the story, minakichan has a good point. And sometimes you just have to think about the context and whats happened before etc to understand a characters statement. It might not be as pointless as it at first seems.

[LadyRushia]

What Minaki and Fantasy Dreamer said. I've read a lot of books this semester where the characters have very different views from mine, and I think the best thing you can do is just understand that that person is sharing his/her own view of the world. Plus, you never know what kind of people you'll meet in life, so understanding perspectives that are opposite of your own may help you share your faith with those people.

Bringing this back to anime, I would agree that there's usually a good reason why a character believes or feels a certain way, which wouldn't make philosophical monologues completely pointless.

[Cap'n Nick]

I haven't seen much of that recently. The shows I've been watching haven't even aspired to false pedantry, let alone the real deal.

[TriezGamer]

It's been a pretty popular device recently, but it also seems to be less and less prevalent as the years go by. Honestly, it doesn't bother me either way, so I'm not going to worry about it.

[ich1990]

I am always hesitant to declare something as "low quality" just because I don't understand it. For that reason, I tend to give those sorts of "high and mighty" anime (or in my case, manga) the benefit of the doubt. I think it is perfectly reasonable, for instance, for a person who has just slaughtered hundreds of people with a notebook given to him by a death god to engage in a little introspection.

In most cases I think it is very healthy for normal adults (or teenagers) to be thinking about the deeper issues of philosophy. I may be weird, but I randomly delve into philosophical speculation, so it is not impossible that anime characters will do so as well. If these speculations are started by the death of a family member or the like, then it is all the more realistic.

If these crazy monologues are delivered during the middle of a fight or something, then I would have a problem.

[Esoteric]

I don't have a problem with anime stories that are deep. I do have a problem with anime stories that think 'deep' equals confusing or grandly mystic monologues. Frankly, I'm only impressed by complexity when it's understandable. For example, I liked Gundam Wing for the action and characters, but the dialog? Blah blah blah blah blah! I think only two of its many grand moral conversations made any sense to me.
If a writer can't explain a philosophy in a clear concise terms, I tend to conclude they are either A: Bad communicators or B: Have a very poor grasp of their philosophy.
But I also realize Japanese audiences seem to have more of a love for vagueness and interpretive stories than western audiences, hence the trend even in a lot of Asian live action movies. But I personally don't enjoy vagueness.

[Fantasy Dreamer]

Good point, esoteric.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

The only subjects that I applaud for doing this very well and very thoroughly are Satoshi Kon, Urasawa Naoki, and Shukō Murase (Ergo Proxy).

The rest suck. XD

If a writer can't explain a philosophy in a clear concise terms, I tend to conclude they are either A: Bad communicators or B: Have a very poor grasp of their philosophy.

I'm going to have to question you about this, but I don't hold any ill feelings towards you! XD Why do you assert that a philosophy is flawed or faulty simply because you can't understand it? The value of a philosophy is entirely contingent on how you perceive it? Also, "clear" and "concise" are subjective terms, meaning someone else could find something clear and concise which you may not have.

[LadyRushia]

Ryanface speaks trufax. Sometimes we can't understand another person's philosophy because it's so different from our own that we can hardly grasp it.

I second the votes for Urasawa and Kon, and I'd even put Miyazaki in there as well.

[Momo-P]

Ryanface speaks trufax. Sometimes we can't understand another person's philosophy because it's so different from our own that we can hardly grasp it.

This is true, though unfortunately most stuff in anime just sounds fancy. When you actually listen to what they're saying, it turns out their words don't even add up with their conclusion is. Take that diary page for instance. A restriction is a limit, so lets simply change the words from that passage. If you were to say "God has no limits, so He loses even the limit of His own 'meaning'." what does that say?

Well that would be saying God has limitless meaning. Where as you or me have limited meaning in this universe, God's meaning just...never ends. And considering He's God, it fits that He would never stop having meaning. However, what does that do to the rest of their babbling?

"even the meaning of the existing disappears. He reaches the limits of the zero."

So lets get this straight. God's meaning is so much that it just never ends, yet it somehow also doesn't exist at all? He also tries to make it sound like God Himself becomes zero (nothing), but having zero limits is totally different than being zero yourself. In fact having zero limits makes it impossible to become nothing. Yet all because he chose the right words and made sure the sentences were set up nicely? Well suddenly it sounds like he knows what he's talking about.

Like some have said, when you actually run into the rare person who knows what they're talking about, philosophies in anything can be fun to listen to. In fact you're usually excited to repeat them just so you can show people this different way of thought. Too bad most people just Star Trek their way through these scenes....

[Esoteric]

Why do you assert that a philosophy is flawed or faulty simply because you can't understand it? The value of a philosophy is entirely contingent on how you perceive it? Also, "clear" and "concise" are subjective terms, meaning someone else could find something clear and concise which you may not have.

No offense taken. ^^ I realize my remarks were strongly opinionated. I'm not a brilliant person, not a great thinker perhaps, but I understand basic logic. I understand a lot of philosophies that I don't agree with like socialism and relativism. I didn't exactly say that a philosophy was 'flawed' because I didn't understand it. I said it's either poor communication, or a poor grasp of the philosophy, although I can see how I was implying 'flawed'. You do have a point.
But okay, let's just assume for a moment that every anime writer has a solid grasp of their philosophy. They understand it perfectly and it makes perfect sense to them. But if their characters can't explain what they believe in terms that the 'average' Joe can understand, how do they hope to make people agree or appreciate it?
Maybe some will appreciate it simply because it 'sounds' grand. So often characters beat around the bush, saying mysteriously things that all together don't amount to any logical train of thought, even a flawed one.
Logic and reason are the foundations of human knowledge. When any philosophical monologue is devoid of a thesis and some sort of argument which supports it, I get very suspicious that the person doesn't know what the heck they're talking about.
You sited Ergo Proxy. As you know I'm a big fan and it's pretty deep. I understood 90% of the philosophical statements in it. I'd call that successful communication. But I'm rambling now. You don't have to agree with me. I respect that. I only hope I've been able to communicate my position clearly enough so that you can agree or disagree.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

[quote="Esoteric (post: 1292402)"]No offense taken. ^^ I realize my remarks were strongly opinionated. I'm not a brilliant person, not a great thinker perhaps, but I understand basic logic. I understand a lot of philosophies that I don't agree with like socialism and relativism. I didn't exactly say that a philosophy was 'flawed' because I didn't understand it. I said it's either poor communication, or a poor grasp of the philosophy, although I can see how I was implying 'flawed'. You do have a point.
But okay, let's just assume for a moment that every anime writer has a solid grasp of their philosophy. They understand it perfectly and it makes perfect sense to them. But if their characters can't explain what they believe in terms that the 'average' Joe can understand, how do they hope to make people agree or appreciate it?
Maybe some will appreciate it simply because it 'sounds' grand. So often characters beat around the bush, saying mysteriously things that all together don't amount to any logical train of thought, even a flawed one.
Logic and reason are the foundations of human knowledge. When any philosophical monologue is devoid of a thesis and some sort of argument which supports it, I get very suspicious that the person doesn't know what the heck they're talking about.
You sited Ergo Proxy. As you know I'm a big fan and it's pretty deep. I understood 90% of the philosophical statements in it. I'd call that successful communication. But I'm rambling now. You don't have to agree with me. I respect that. I only hope I've been able to communicate my position clearly enough so that you can agree or disagree. ]
Well first off, I don't think that the average Joe would really care for philosophy. =p Most people shun the idea of seeking greater knowledge anyway.

I watched Ergo Proxy. I enjoyed it and I was aware of the philosophical statements, but I could not wrap my mind around them at all (If you want to debrief me, please do!). However, knowing that there WERE philosophical statements that weren't done in a poor fashion, I enjoyed it. Here, I see the lack of understanding of Ergo Proxy to simply be because I couldn't wrap my head around it, not because it was poorly communicated.

Paranoia Agent took me two views to understand. The first time I watched it I was absolutely mind-screwed. The second time made much more sense. Likewise, someone else may find it absolutely confusing.

[minakichan]

The only subjects that I applaud for doing this very well and very thoroughly are Satoshi Kon, Urasawa Naoki, and Shukō Murase (Ergo Proxy).

I know people will harp on me for my Death Note love, but I'd put Ohba on this too-- not because of what hir individual characters espouse (just because Light believes in moral Social Darwinism doesn't mean that Ohba does!), but hir response to all the characters' beliefs-- the idea that morality is undefined, human existence is <s>solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short</s> hypocritical, and death is the great equalizer. I do think that a lot of this isn't explicitly stated (only one of those themes is explicitly defined), but the great part of the series is that it leaves so much to interpretation. I think subtle implications take a lot more finesse to pull off than having a character simply parrot the author's beliefs.

Another one I'd put on the list is Oshii Mamoru, but to be honest, I've only seen one of his (weaker) films, so that's only by hearsay =)

Ergo Proxy

Real's character design is the awesomest and most gorgeous thing ever. Therefore, it is a deep and thought-provoking and wonderful series.

(Also, credit it to Sato Dai and the other writers too! Directing is important, but since the "deepness" is largely writing, I think they deserve as much if not more credit ^^)

[animewarrior]

hmm I've noticed but then I'm the kind of person that will sit for hours contemplating things...
I'm strange that way...
so whenever physchological topics are brought up I simply take the chracter's view as a plot device
or the author's perceptions

For example in the movie "The Place Promised in Our Early Days",
love is shown to be delicate connection between souls and the main characters contemplate it.
Theories of alternate dimensions are presented and such.

A non-anime reference would be "The Lion King"... the movie deals with a lot of themes which all leads back to "we are all connected in the great circle of life" philosophy. I know some religious groups (including some Christians) were offended by the movie.

Everything is perspective. Don't take the physcological elements in anime too seriously when forming your own morality; simply compare with what God has laid out for us and take what you can.

[LadyRushia]

[quote="animewarrior"]Everything is perspective. Don't take the physcological elements in anime too seriously when forming your own morality]
Exactly. You may even find yourself producing counter-arguments that serve to deepen and confirm your faith.

[Esoteric]

Well first off, I don't think that the average Joe would really care for philosophy. =p Most people shun the idea of seeking greater knowledge anyway.

I suppose, and that's pretty much why post-modern society is falling apart. Nobody wants to think anymore. Most kids don't know even know what common sense is, let alone logic. But that's another thread....

I had to watch Princess Mononoke three times before I finally understood just what it was saying. Of course, I've forgotten exactly what that was now...but it could have been so less confusing....

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I suppose, and that's pretty much why post-modern society is falling apart. Nobody wants to think anymore. Most kids don't know even know what common sense is, let alone logic. But that's another thread....

Weeeeellllll, I could argue that common sense is nothing but a bunch of accepted beliefs held by society...

But yeah, another thread. =p

[Esoteric]

Weeeeellllll, I could argue that common sense is nothing but a bunch of accepted beliefs held by society...

Oh buddy, don't tempt me.

But here's another thought for your consideration. If the average Joe doesn't like philosophy--even has an aversion to such ponderings, then why put it in anime which is intended as a mainstream media (much of it for the younger population, no less)?

[MasterDias]

But here's another thought for your consideration. If the average Joe doesn't like philosophy--even has an aversion to such ponderings, then why put it in anime which is intended as a mainstream media (much of it for the younger population, no less)?

I don't think the average Joe necessarily dislikes some "philosophy" as long as they can otherwise follow the main story without imploding their braincells or spending most of the time confused. Death Note, despite all of its pseudo-philosophy and talking, was pretty easy to follow.
Shows like Ergo Proxy and Paranoia Agent are somewhat more of an acquired taste.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Oh buddy, don't tempt me.

But here's another thought for your consideration. If the average Joe doesn't like philosophy--even has an aversion to such ponderings, then why put it in anime which is intended as a mainstream media (much of it for the younger population, no less)?

Perhaps production companies wish to target things to mainstream media for money, when the authors themselves simply make it for the same of expressing themselves?

There's certainly more to it. Let me try to conjure up thoughts without being too cynical XD

[minakichan]

But here's another thought for your consideration. If the average Joe doesn't like philosophy--even has an aversion to such ponderings, then why put it in anime which is intended as a mainstream media (much of it for the younger population, no less)?

Guys guys guys.

The people in this topic right now are like, a bunch of kids in their teens and 20s (Sorry Esoteric, I have no clue how old you are). What is this talking about average Joes like we're all smarter and more philosophical deep lololol than that the faceless simple-minded everydayman?

Not saying that young people can't be smart (tons are so much smarter than the "average" adult), but I'm not convinced that we're all so much more learned and enlightened than "average."

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Cause I'm cynical and most anime fans like animes that reaches a non-intelligent standard.

I should get over it. XD

[Akira Takahashi]

I really enjoy is sometimes, particularly if it gives me something to think about. However, when it comes out of the blue, has no real point, etc. I get annoyed with it.

Example: I enjoyed the conversations regarding "fate" in Escaflowne. More importantly, free will vs. destiny is a theme greatly emphasized in that anime, so it wasn't like it was just a writer trying to toss some philosophy in it for the sake of tossing something in.

I also have to admit that I love the philosophical rambles in Trigun, but they're also intermixed with the anime's main theme.

However, I hate when other anime (characters) try to throw pointless stuff in. Can anyone say Yu-Gi-Oh!? One character in that show was about ready to drive me insane with the way she could carry on about stuff that didn't matter.

[Esoteric]

Actually, I consider myself an average Joe in terms of intelligence and even learning, but not in terms of mindset. I wasn't intending to belittle the average anime watcher...I was only 'working' off of MSP's argument. Anywhoo,

Perhaps production companies wish to target things to mainstream media for money, when the authors themselves simply make it for the same of expressing themselves?

Yes, producers are out to make money. It's their job--they need to know what their target audience likes so that they know what to sell. And based on the number of manga-to-anime translations, they like sure bets as much as the next guy.
It's also true that the authors are trying to express themselves within those bounds, but the farther they drift from formulas, the more of a risk they take. Some do succeed in creating something both genuinely smart and popular. However in the majority of serious/action anime shows produced, more often than not it just seems like they said, "Philosophical stuff sounds cool/grownup so the kids'll dig it. Throw some in. Doesn't matter if it makes sense, they'll still be mesmerized by it." More often than not the worst offender is a villain with some garbled crazy vision of progress. Those annoy me to no end.

Eh, my head hurts now. I'm going to be hypocritical and go watch some mindless TV show right now while I nurse my cold with a box of kleenex.

[Cap'n Nick]

How about this for a change of pace: instead of shows that try to be deep and fail, shows that manage to be deep without looking like they're trying?

A not-so-great example would be Friends. Not exactly known for its high philosophy moments, but after awhile it's pretty easy to see that even the side characters have about fifty pages of back story sitting in a file somewhere. That's a lot of homework for something almost universally regarded as fluff.