protesting vs loving

[Tenshi no Ai]

Been thinking about this, ever since my boyfriend (who is an atheist), brought up something he heard on The Colbert Report (which I know, he is well loved by people here^^) Although yeah, he is a comedian and all, made a point on an ep I was told, about how people protest things like abortions when being a Christian is supposed to be about love... Now, I really got thinking about this myself...

The two HUGE protests I see everywhere: anti-gay and anti-abortion. I see and hear tons of stories of picketing and things like t-shirt designs and bumper stickers. Really, what is everyone trying to say? An opinion is being stated, and fingers are being pointed with "you are BAD and WRONG because you are doing this!!!" Really, I'm starting to wonder if stuff like that is really good to do... To an atheists eyes (since I'm always trying to put myself in another's perspective) it seems like condemnation towards people. "Abortion is murder!" Well, doesn't sound overly friendly coming from a Christian, who is supposed to be known to the world as loving. It just moreso points a finger at a point, and tells them that they have just convicted murder. Not a very friendly gesture^^ Then you get those pictures of a symbol of a boy and girl with the caption "how it SHOULD be", which make those who ARE in fact gay, look alien and abnormal...

I myself know gays and well, no I don't agree with the lifestyle, but would I ever use an image or make a comment against them? Heck no! I myself am also against abortion, but the way I see it, well, the other side of the spectrum is called "pro-choice" and would that not be life in general? People make choices, whether good or bad. Even if say a law WAS passed, what will that do exactly? Places will still exist, the same thing will continue and it just doesn't stop a whole lot...

In my mind, protests like these will in NO WAY bring anyone closer, but further away from God. Do people really want to be part of a belief that sits there, booing and hissing at others? Or, would they want to know someone that, while not agreeing with what they do, still able to love and care for them? Protesting won't solve much if the issue will still persist, no matter what, but if people come to Him on an actual relationship basis with a person, maybe only then can they think things otherwise....

[K. Ayato]

Sticking "anti-" on something paints it in a negative light, no matter what your views are. I can understand your boyfriend's confusion. Yes, we as Christians are called to love, but when something is challenging what the Bible teaches, we have to take a stand. Rather than saying you're against something, instead say you're for something else.

One thing you could tell your boyfriend that he might agree with is that as a Christian you don't support the act of committing abortion, but you do love the people, even if their views are the exact opposite of your own. Goes back to the "love the sinner, hate the sin" view. You may or may not agree with someone else's opinion, but if you can put differences aside and still care for them as a fellow human being, that says a lot more.

Hope this helps .

[LadyRushia]

This is always a tough situation to deal with, but I think K. Ayato has the right idea. Hate the sin, not the sinner.

When it comes to the anti-anything protests, well, I personally don't feel that they're a good way to handle any problems and they only make the group holding these protests come across as conceded and hateful. And of course, when it's Christians holding these protests, everyone looks at them and says, "Oh! All Christians are like this! What jerks!"

You know, I went to the movies with my friend to see "I Now Pronounce You Chuck And Larry" and there was this scene after a gay party where all the people come out and meet a small group of protesters who are, of course, Christians and they start doing the whole "you'll go to hell for eternity for your actions! Don't you care about that?" thing. My friend then turned to me and said, "I would not wanna be part of that group."

And then there were all the other people in that theater who saw that scene and said, "Yep, those Christians are really stupid and annoying."

I honestly think that many bible-throwers and protesters have their hearts in the right places. They just want people to turn away from sin; however, it's the way they go about it that causes the problems and ruins our image.

But you know, with all the hate going around, maybe kindness and caring from a Christian would mean more to a gay person.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

The problem with Hate the Sin not the Sinner is that often these protests fail to draw that line, or so many people get so caught up in the cause of "anti-whatever" that they do begin to hate the sinner. Biggotry is unfortunately a well earned stereotype in christianity because there are so many who claim the name of Christ very vocally who in truth are hateful towards those who are different. And... Very unfortunately... protests tend to draw these people in droves. Too many people love condemnation and judgement.
I've always been more for acting on a personal and individual level. Someone is gonna listen more when a friend discusses the subject with them in a calm, loving, and rational manner than when a stranger yells at them and waves signs in their faces. I went to a parochial school, so I got to see a lot of demonstrations... Unfortunately that's what it often devolves to - on both sides.

[Jaltus-bot]

I pretty much agree with everything here. I've been doing some reading from time to time on issues like abortion. There are several variations of views on abortion and when a fertalized egg becomes a real person and how we should then respond to it. If all that is communicated to those who would not hold the same view is that pro-life people think that people who get abortions are murderers, then that disrespects the intellectual ability and perhaps interest of those who are pro- abortion or pro-choice while seeming to disregard the needs and circumstances of those who would consider abortion. On this particular issue, I think it's best to understand why they hold these views and their concerns about it so that we can correct with gentleness and respond to their needs in ways that will better enable them to do the right thing.

I am reading a book on how to stop abortion because I was curious about its approach to changing our society. It has some practical organizational, economic, and social suggestions for achieving this goal. If anyone is interested in the book info, let me know.

[Nikolai Melodie]

I think that these guys are right on the line really.

Protests are generally hateful. What is supposedly peaceful protests sometimes leads to murders and assaults, which really does NOT help the subject at all. I believe Abortion is wrong but I have heard of people blowing abortion clinics and pretty much terrorizing Abortionists. Stuff like that will never, ever want to make someone even look into what we have of offer and to an outsider would probably paint us in a pretty awful light.

Now I'm going to tell you my story from experience, as a newly returned to Christ woman, and someone whose sort of working through (with the Lord, of course) Lesbianism (Note: that doesn't mean I'm trying to un-gay myself per se, but it means I'm praying on the issue in general). I grew up a Christian, in my church, in my bubble, and then I first hand witnessed protesters. I instantly thought, "If we are to hate the sin but not the sinner, why are they hating the 'sinners'?". At this protest people had things thrown at them, and some so-called Christians came around waving about flags that said stuff like, "God has a wonderful plan for your life: HELL!" Now... forgive me for this, but that is the worst way ever to try to help someone realize their sin, or what Christ has to offer.

After seeing stuff like that, the image of Christians in general is ruined. It was for me, certainly, and let's just say it's still repairing itself. If I ever want to help a person realize what the bible says about abortion or other contemporary issues, I would do it in small groups or one on one. Protests like that don't accomplish much of anything, and, in my opinion, only serve to root a message like, "Christians hate everything," in potential listeners.

[EricTheFred]

For myself, I can sympathize with all on the issue, but I cannot condone the vioence or the hate. It is no more God's will that Christian wage a holy war against abortionists or gays than it is God's will that certain extremists wage a 'Jihad' against Israel or the US.

I don't consider homosexuality a 'life-style'. It is a sin, clearly stated so in the Bible, and, to my mind anyway, clearly contrary to what God designed our bodies to do. However, I don't believe Sin comes in rankings. I can't say 'that is a sin' without remembering my Lord holding up a rock and stating 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.' I am a sinner, for many things I have done in my life. A person succumbing to a sin I would personally not commit is not somehow a greater sinner, simply a fellow sinner.

We are supposed to love each other. That was made very clear to us. Let's try to keep it in mind.

[K. Ayato]

You're right, Eric. There are no rankings when comes to sin. One sin, although more grievous than another, is not "the worst sin" or "the unpardonable sin". The Lord doesn't categorize any form in sin in any way. He sees our sin for what it really is: sin.

Sin ranking is born out of pride. It's far too easy to see someone go to an abortion clinic and think "Look at her. Ending the life of an unborn child. She's a murderer" when at the same time you're nursing hatred towards someone in your life. Jesus Himself said that hatred towards another is just the same as murder. Sad that there's so much hypocrisy that comes out when we take sides on issues. If you must take a stand on these things people protest against, make sure your conscience is clear and don't point out someone's wrongs when you're in the wrong yourself. It's not helpful.

[Tenshi no Ai]

Too many people love condemnation and judgement.

I'll agree with that. For condemnation, it's as if some people would just LOVE to go to heaven and watch all the heathens suffer or something :/ Don't know any one personally like that, but I know of a general attitude that does go around that people want the bad ones to be punished, yet once again don't believe that they themself can do something THAT bad.

With judgement, this is just a HUGE thing that's always going on... I just had a talk the other day with a friend about Christians and judgement. Personally, I used to sort of be one of those people, when someone didn't make good choices I would be like "how COULD they??" and now I find myself doing similar things, so who's to say anything, really?^^ I've had a hard time in the past being with people who point out every bad thing I do and say how it's not a good idea and I shouldn't do it this and that. It wasn't fun. My friend, whom I was discussing these things with, said how there's things that I do that she doesn't support, nor would do herself, but she's not planning on lecturing me out of it (which in my case, involves going out with an atheist: something I'm sure that there are MANY Christians out there that would love to lecture and/or condemn me for :/)

I also remember once being pointed out on a verse where if someone isn't living the Christian life (or at the least, is sinning) that you shouldn't even be around them. I thought of it more as a warning that you might fall into that lifestyle, or even as an older idea where people thought if you associated with these people who didn't seem like Christians, that you yourself weren't making a good name for yourself. I was encouraged to stop hanging around people who were sort of falling through their faith, and not feeling as "Christiany" as they used to. I thought this was really interesting... Many of us has had periods of times where we've fallen away or had down times, but I didn't think abandoning friends unless they came back, was a good idea, personally :/ Still, just interesting, involving the other judging others/not thinking about yourself issue...

Really, it's interesting of how much Christians vary with ideals, from saying things from "well, people have the free will to make choices, even if they aren't good ones..." to "that is bad and evil to do" (which in some cases, it is not always so and the opinion varies greatly from person to person). Probably overall involving a different attitude on things, although feeling the same way about an issue. Maybe people should take a different approach sometimes instead of simply saying "you shouldn't do this and you shouldn't do that". I know many people who are atheists etc see us as that because they hear THAT the most, rather than the reasons behind why that is (aka, wanting to do it for Him, because of everything He's done for us, although we aren't always perfect :/ I guess sometimes they moreso think that we're simply following a book, rather than that being the reason).

[Alexander]

Admittedly, I'm having quite a few moral questions being presented to me. And as a result, I'll probably be asking more questions then making answers. XD

My first one (also being the most major) is something that seems to both make sense and contradict itself. I do understand as Christians we're supposed to be tolerant and understanding towards sinners, as we ourselves are. That makes sense. But from what I'm interpreting, it seems that we should never object or say anything that we would feel being naturally wrong. I think there's a very delicate balance we need to reach of being both tolerant but also to say "you shouldn't do that" when someone is doing something harmful. But I'm still unsure where we're supposed to stand and when it's right to say no, and when it's best to not say anything.

The second question comes from peaceful protesting. When I think of a protest that was successful, I think of the people who opposed Segregation during the 1950's and 60's. That protest from my perspective was very honorable and it did show that when a majority comes together that something good can come from it. Now, my views on abortion are very strong, sometimes too strong. For my life I've made up my mind that protesting this peacefully would do good and show the message not only Christians, but anyone against abortion would feel. But if the message only stems hatred, then I would have to accept that this kind of protesting should be stopped. My overall question here is, "Is there a time when protesting is needed"?

The last part isn't so much of a question, as it is more of a personal observation about myself. I have a very black and white feeling when I'm around people. Either I feel accepted, and thusly I accept someone. Or I'm unaccepted, and thusly I don't accept them. The problem is, this also reflects my faith. If someone I meet isn't Christian, I don't go into a defensive mode trying to get away from them, but I feel "incomplete" around them. Actually, this is more of a personal question for myself. So I don't think this part should be paid attention too.

*sighs* This is such a delicate topic. The world can be incredibly difficult to live in sometimes.

[Tenshi no Ai]

My first one (also being the most major) is something that seems to both make sense and contradict itself. I do understand as Christians we're supposed to be tolerant and understanding towards sinners, as we ourselves are. That makes sense. But from what I'm interpreting, it seems that we should never object or say anything that we would feel being naturally wrong. I think there's a very delicate balance we need to reach of being both tolerant but also to say "you shouldn't do that" when someone is doing something harmful. But I'm still unsure where we're supposed to stand and when it's right to say no, and when it's best to not say anything.

That's true. I know for me, I'll tell them if I agree with something or not. I firstly try and try and understand from where they're coming from, and really hope that they understand my reasonings too. As I've said many times, I'm a horrible debater in the sense that that one seems to understand my point of views, since they are so hooked on their own :/ I think many people think that we are ONLY against abortion etc because "the Bible says so". I think many of us at least try and think about why things are, before we decide for ourselves on it. For me, I think that logically, if something, anything is growing, that is considered alive, and that's why I myself disagree with it.

My overall question here is, "Is there a time when protesting is needed"?

That's hard to say. There's time when protesting is wanted, but needed is something else. For me, my logics usually differ than others on various issues an concerning certain issues, I am a pacifist, so that would certainly differ with what other people may protest against^^

I think there are a few big question attached: "what are we protesting against?" "WHY are we doing it?" "what do we hope will change?" "will we be effective with getting our message across, or is there a different, more efficient way of doing it?" So I guess yes, there are many questions involved, with wanting/needing a protest.

*sighs* This is such a delicate topic. The world can be incredibly difficult to live in sometimes.

No kidding :/ It's rather hard living in a world as a Christian, with the general public thinking one thing about us and a certain group of people that actually act that way and yeah... Oh well, we should be grateful that where we live we have the freedom to do these things, unlike some unfortunate places in the world...

[EricTheFred]

If I might add... a very key issue here is also, what is an appropriate 'protest'.

I can, for example see two extremes as both wrong. I consider the absolute acceptance that some demand we as Christians give to the Gay community to be wrong. I'm not talking about acceptance as fellow humans, Christian or otherwise, but about actual acceptance of the condition as 'normal and okay', even to the extent of sanctifying a gay 'marriage'.

On the other hand, I have for years had an image in my mind of the most revolting thing I ever personally saw done in the name of Christ. It was a newspaper article about a particular preacher and his followers, who had an especially strong conviction on the subect. So strong, in fact, that he was carrying a sign in the picture that said "GOD HATES FAGS".

As I said. Revolting. I will for all time refuse to believe that God hates any of his children.

Protest by showing your love, not by waving placards and yelling in peoples faces. Protest by reaching out to pregnant women and helping them, and by welcoming anyone into your pew at church, regardless of what orientation you might suspect them to be.

Like the old song says "They will know we are Christians by our love."

[Nate]

[color="Black"]I'm not talking about acceptance as fellow humans, Christian or otherwise, but about actual acceptance of the condition as 'normal and okay', even to the extent of sanctifying a gay 'marriage'.[/color]

The church isn't required to sanctify any marriage though, gay or otherwise. People can get married in places other than the church, and since the church reserves the right to refuse to marry people, I don't see the problem. Some churches do sanctify gay marriages though, which while I think a church shouldn't do that, it's their right.

[color="Black"]It was a newspaper article about a particular preacher and his followers, who had an especially strong conviction on the subect. So strong, in fact, that he was carrying a sign in the picture that said "GOD HATES FAGS".[/color]

Yeah, that's Fred Phelps. All I will say is, "Ugh."

[color="Black"]a very key issue here is also, what is an appropriate 'protest'.[/color]

To me, the key issue is, what are we even protesting? Protesting...homosexuality? That isn't going to work because that's hating the sinner and not the sin. Protesting gay marriage? It would be better to simply vote against it should the issue come up in your state (since, at the moment at least, legality of gay marriage is within the state legislature, not the federal), and there are better ways to persuade people to support your side without protesting.

You also have to remember that when a sin is so intertwined into someone's personality and being, that the phrase "love the sinner hate the sin" isn't going to work, and any protesting against homosexuality as a sin, not even against homosexuals, is going to be interpreted as a personal attack.

[EricTheFred]

The church isn't required to sanctify any marriage though, gay or otherwise. People can get married in places other than the church, and since the church reserves the right to refuse to marry people, I don't see the problem. Some churches do sanctify gay marriages though, which while I think a church shouldn't do that, it's their right.

Well, for me, it's an issue because of my denomination, which is in fact in the middle of this debate. Unfortunately, most people seem to think that the only camps are 'keep all homosexuals out of the church' and 'sanctify Gay marriage and say it isn't a sin'. This is unfortunate, because I don't think either of these positions is remotely close to the attitude most Lutherans have on the subject.

I suspect my personal position is closer to typically Lutheran, although I have no way of knowing if it is in fact a majority view or not. I feel that, while it is a sin, it and all sins are between the individual and our Lord. I welcome any and all fellow sinners into my Church as equal and equally valuable members. I do not consider it right for the Church to sanctify or recognize homosexual unions, because there is a moral significance to the Church's blessing.

On the civil side, though, I frankly don't care, because I don't see how state-sanctioned homosexual marriages harm anything or have anything to do with me at all, but that is a completely separate issue.

Back to my original point in my post, though.

Christ only ever gave out one boxing tip: "Turn the other cheek". I think in the same manner, his method of protest would be to sit down and have dinner with the homosexuals, the pro-choicers and every one else that my fellow Christians keep waving placards at. I try to keep this in mind while choosing what I do and how I react.

[Nate]

Ah, okay, I see what you mean now. That makes sense then.

[color="Black"]I think in the same manner, his method of protest would be to sit down and have dinner with the homosexuals, the pro-choicers and every one else that my fellow Christians keep waving placards at.[/color]

QFT.

[Saint Kevin]

Protests are undertaken with the aim of changing the behavior of some or many people (the government, a corporation, or a group of individuals, for example) or in some cases, the law. With that in mind, I see nothing wrong necessarily with a group of people assembled together that happen to believe that certain behaviors are wrong. This is true of nearly every group of persons assembled to protest something, I believe. In fact, it is only the shared (moral/ethical) conviction about a particular issue that gives protesters the impetus to protest in the first place. Understanding this, I have no problem with protesters that want to change the behavior of others...in fact...I EXPECT NOTHING LESS.

That said, if Christians are to assemble themselves with the purpose of affecting change, the ought to remain humble, and wholeheartedly avoid asserting their OWN opinions as right. It is not the opinions of men that will turn sinners from their ways, but the Word of God, the Holy Spirit, and our love in action. That said, we should contend boldly and lovingly for the truth of the Word of God.

I believe that compassion, understanding, and love, combined with the Word of God and our own attempts at apologetics and evangelism (as well as any other ministry) are the best examples to an unsaved world. We do have a part to play, notably ministering to people with any kind of need, as well as attempting to convince others of the Bible's goodness, rational consistency, and truth (in every way - moral, psychological, historical, etc.). With that in mind, Christians acting in groups to love one another, and to love the lost, can do much good.

Can that be done in a "protest?"

I believe so, but only very carefully. I believe that if our love is not visible to those we are trying to change (and more essentially - to save), then our protests will be completely ineffectual; simply an attempt to condemn others in an attempt to feel better about ourselves.

Still, we ought to stand up for what is right, but to always remember that sinners are not our enemy. Let us then stand boldly, against the real enemy, in the right way, as fearless ambassadors of Christ. As Paul says in Ephesians:

Eph 6:10-20 (NIV): Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace.
In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

[Syreth]

This is an interesting thread with many good points. In my experiences, I have seen people take two different extremes on the subject. One extreme would be the guy who has the "God hates fags" sign. The other extreme would be the person who clams up and doesn't even share what God has to say about it, even when asked. Carrying the latter extreme farther would lead to approving the sin, pretending like it doesn't exist and that everything is A.O.K. with God.

I personally believe both extremes are wrong. I think loving the sinner and hating the sin is a good philosophy, but if we misrepresent God to the world, then it's no more loving than holding up a sign that says "Your destiny is hell."

So, don't be wishy-washy and don't be surprised when people sin. We are all sinners after all. It's what we all seem to do best.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

So, in the course of my nightly (or, at least, an attempt to establish a nightly) Bible study I was going through Proverbs and found this. Felt I needed to post it ASAP.

Proverbs 9:7-8

Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult; whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse. Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

[AsianBlossom]

My first one (also being the most major) is something that seems to both make sense and contradict itself. I do understand as Christians we're supposed to be tolerant and understanding towards sinners, as we ourselves are. That makes sense. But from what I'm interpreting, it seems that we should never object or say anything that we would feel being naturally wrong. I think there's a very delicate balance we need to reach of being both tolerant but also to say "you shouldn't do that" when someone is doing something harmful. But I'm still unsure where we're supposed to stand and when it's right to say no, and when it's best to not say anything.

As a Catholic, one of the spiritual works of mercy is to "instruct the ignorant," meaning that if someone doesn't know something they're doing is wrong, we should try to correct them in a gentle way, "gentle" being the key word here. If we care about people and want them to get to Heaven with us, we should try and help them in any way. Even if we present it to them with a logical explanation as to why it's wrong, they may not be happy at first. However, they may come to think and reflect deeply on the matter, and perhaps even ask themselves, "Is this really something I should be doing?"


BTW, I once wrote a paper on whether or not the legalization of abortion was constitutionally correct or not. Naturally, I sided with the "constitutionally incorrect" option, and included the following argument (please let me know if this is good; the reason I'm writing about it here is because we were on the subject of abortion and people protesting):

One duty of the United States (like and other country) is to protect its citizens, including children. As you know, there are laws that impose penalties on parents if they neglect, abuse, or murder their own child. From the moment that a child begins forming in his/her mother's body, they are considered to be hers, right? Just like all her other children. She is in charge of protecting and raising them because they are her children. This should include any children she has that are unborn. So if she decides to get an abortion, she is causing her child to cease existing, or, in other words, to die. If that baby is just as much her child as her other already born children, why should she decide which ones live and which ones die? And why is the government letting her kill her own children? At that rate, any parent who is fed up with their teenage daughter/son should "logically" be able to "off" them as well.

(Note that I do NOT like killing at all and do NOT want parents "offing" their kids...I'm just making a radical point.)

Anyways, just throwing that out here; want to see what you all think (I got a good grade for it, so I'm guessing it's okay...)

[Nate]

I'll PM you my response to avoid political/theological debate on the boards.

[creed4]

As a Catholic, one of the spiritual works of mercy is to "instruct the ignorant," meaning that if someone doesn't know something they're doing is wrong, we should try to correct them in a gentle way, "gentle" being the key word here. If we care about people and want them to get to Heaven with us, we should try and help them in any way. Even if we present it to them with a logical explanation as to why it's wrong, they may not be happy at first. However, they may come to think and reflect deeply on the matter, and perhaps even ask themselves, "Is this really something I should be doing?"


BTW, I once wrote a paper on whether or not the legalization of abortion was constitutionally correct or not. Naturally, I sided with the "constitutionally incorrect" option, and included the following argument (please let me know if this is good; the reason I'm writing about it here is because we were on the subject of abortion and people protesting):

One duty of the United States (like and other country) is to protect its citizens, including children. As you know, there are laws that impose penalties on parents if they neglect, abuse, or murder their own child. From the moment that a child begins forming in his/her mother's body, they are considered to be hers, right? Just like all her other children. She is in charge of protecting and raising them because they are her children. This should include any children she has that are unborn. So if she decides to get an abortion, she is causing her child to cease existing, or, in other words, to die. If that baby is just as much her child as her other already born children, why should she decide which ones live and which ones die? And why is the government letting her kill her own children? At that rate, any parent who is fed up with their teenage daughter/son should "logically" be able to "off" them as well.

(Note that I do NOT like killing at all and do NOT want parents "offing" their kids...I'm just making a radical point.)

Anyways, just throwing that out here; want to see what you all think (I got a good grade for it, so I'm guessing it's okay...)

Good point. As Christian we are called to Love, but part of love is pointing out sin. It is a cancer and deadly. Now often we want to take an extreme, but that is not what we need to do. We must tell the truth in love, when we fail to do so we cause problems.
As for protest, I been to some and the ones I been to were not like what has have described. As Christian we are called to be salt and light. That means if a laws is immoral we need to work to change it, by the same token we need to work with the law to do so if we can. We cannot reach Christ goal with un-christlike behavior. That means we reach out with love. sometimes love is a glass of water, other time it's saying what your doing is wrong.