Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[Cognitive Gear]

Halo 2 is virtually identical to Halo because Bungie listened to the fans and cranked out more of the same.

Obviously we haven't been playing the same game, because the Halo 2 I play is vastly different from Halo CE. I could list all the changes, but then I'd be derailing the thread.

As for the tiers:

They are a guide of predictions based on theoretical "Perfect Players". If you were able to do every combo and movement perfectly with a character, who would win?

Also; skill>tier . For example, I play often play Young Link and defeat people who play exclusively with high tier characters. Honestly, people should play the character that suits their play style before anything else is taken into consideration.

[Felix]

Obviously we haven't been playing the same game, because the Halo 2 I play is vastly different from Halo CE. I could list all the changes, but then I'd be derailing the thread.

Well my point is that the two games are vastly similar in their play structure. There's a few new weapons, yeah, but that's about it. (I'm not trying to trash Halo 2... I love the game.) I just think that Bungie made a "quick" sequel because they knew it would sell well.

Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that Brawl shouldn't be too similar to Melee in every way.

[AsianBlossom]

*notices the in-depth conversation*

*shakes cane* "Back in my day, we only played as Link because we thought he was cool! All this talk about move sets and advance tactics never entered our minds ya wipper snappers!"

XD

Actually, I do applaud the people who do so much research on Smash and learning advanced moves. It makes tournaments all that more amazing to watch.

But I personally just follow the simple philosophy of, "the best character in Smash is the character you work the best with". Fox and Sheik are considered the best in Melee, but I'm personally no good with either. Marth has always been my strongest character, and I basically just worked on perfecting myself with him. And I would say to any other smashers to do the same. Play with who you're best with.

That's whole "ya whipper snappers" thing sound like something my brother and I would say! XD

I didn't actually know that Fox was one of the best in Melee. He's actually my best since I don't really like playing as anyone else. He's quick on his feet, has good close-range attacks, can reflect projectiles, and has a laser gun for long-range attack. What more could I want? I don't even mind that he's like a lead weight in terms of falling off the edge! XD

[uc pseudonym]

To say "the best character is the one you're best with" really displays a lack of understanding as to how Smash Bros. works, no offense.

Not entirely. For example, I think Samus is a better character than Peach for me. This is not because Samus is actually better, but because due to my playing style I can't take full advantage of Peach's move sets. Samus works very well with how I play, on the other hand, so I'd say she would be the better choice between the two if I ever needed to play competitively.

Also]
I'd say that if skill can be measured on a scale of 1-10, tier is a modifier of about +/- 2. For example, I'm noticeably better than some of my friends at fundamentals, but when I play Kirby I will lose more than I win. But there's really quite a difference in skill between casual players and hardcore ones.

Well my point is that the two games are vastly similar in their play structure. There's a few new weapons, yeah, but that's about it. (I'm not trying to trash Halo 2... I love the game.) I just think that Bungie made a "quick" sequel because they knew it would sell well.

It feels similar to the first, yes, but people who are into Halo multiplayer on a similar level to this can go on for a long time about the differences. The Pistol, for example, is immensely weaker in the second game. The inclusion of weapons like the Energy Sword and principles like dual wielding vastly change gameplay at highly competitive levels.

[MasterDias]

I'm sure many of you are more knowledgable about fighting games than me so I can't really argue about the tier list...although I will say that I find it slightly overrated. How many people could seriously do the "theoretical Perfect Game?" The top competitive tournament players might come close, but the average gamer who plays it at home with a group of friends? Probably not.
Also, there are all sorts of variables that could affect it. Items for one, and all of that random crap and dangers that half the stages in SSBM have...

I do find the tier list interesting though. Jigglypuff's really that high up on it? I'd have assumed he would be nearer the bottom, and am surprised he's beating a bunch of the others. But, maybe I'm just sort of partial to Ganondorf.

[Hitokiri]

I personally play with Roy. However, I only play with one person. I am not a big fan of tournaments.

If I could have any FE character, I would say "The Black Knight" or "Lynn".

[Felix]

It feels similar to the first, yes, but people who are into Halo multiplayer on a similar level to this can go on for a long time about the differences. The Pistol, for example, is immensely weaker in the second game. The inclusion of weapons like the Energy Sword and principles like dual wielding vastly change gameplay at highly competitive levels.

Perhaps Halo was a poor choice for my example, haha ^^; You're right, though. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm merely implying that I don't want or expect Brawl to be a cookie-cutter sequel of Melee.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Also, there are all sorts of variables that could affect it. Items for one, and all of that random crap and dangers that half the stages in SSBM have...

1. I am absolutely, 100%]I do find the tier list interesting though. Jigglypuff's really that high up on it? I'd have assumed he would be nearer the bottom, and am surprised he's beating a bunch of the others. But, maybe I'm just sort of partial to Ganondorf.[/quote]
It's mainly because of his roll attack and his sleep attack.

Not entirely. For example, I think Samus is a better character than Peach for me. This is not because Samus is actually better, but because due to my playing style I can't take full advantage of Peach's move sets. Samus works very well with how I play, on the other hand, so I'd say she would be the better choice between the two if I ever needed to play competitively.

I'm pretty sure he means from an objective standpoint.

[MasterDias]

1. I am absolutely, 100% Anti-Item. I dislike items because it's not a true testament to your ability as a SSB player. I always shut them off when I play unless the majority of players request them to be turned on. That and I just find it a much more fun and fair fight.

2. Tournament competition ALWAYS has items off.

3. A seasoned SSB player knows how to dodge all the random crap and dangers. Even so, note that these "random crap and dangers" has an equal chance of hitting anybody.

1. I've always had a funner time with items on personally. But, maybe that's just me. When my friends and myself play, we have almost always had them on. However, I'm far from a "hardcore" SSBM player.

2. I'm aware of that.

3. Well yeah, sure they will. But, it is still a foreign variable that will likely have some effect over how well characters play.

[Felix]

1. I am absolutely, 100% Anti-Item. I dislike items because it's not a true testament to your ability as a SSB player. I always shut them off when I play unless the majority of players request them to be turned on. That and I just find it a much more fun and fair fight.

I understand that that's your preference, but I mean honestly, how can you find it more fun without items? Smash Bros. is the type of fighting game that really lends itself perfectly to items. I should think it would be rather boring without them.
If you want an item free fighter game, play a serious one like Soul Calibur, but I believe that Smash Bros. should remain in its itemish glory (I understand how this is different for tournament play)

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I understand that that's your preference, but I mean honestly, how can you find it more fun without items?

It makes it less fun because when people get depended on it, it takes away the need of skill and skill alone because luck then becomes involved. It's no fun when you're at 67%, your enemy is at 156%, and your enemy picks up a max tomato or a heart container.

Oh, and I hate Soul Caliber.

[Fish and Chips]

I play Super Smash Brothers both with items and without, at a time and place of my own choosing.

Deal with it.

[AsianBlossom]

My brother has the items off most of the time, so I've been able to groom myself to fighting without. Of course, though, this doesn't mean I don't enjoy the occassional insane melee of a million (well, not really) of one item (like Pokeballs especially ^^)

I'm just glad that Fox is returning for Brawl. Though if Sonic makes it in, he's going to have a run for his money XD

[Fish and Chips]

I'm just glad that Fox is returning for Brawl. Though if Sonic makes it in, he's going to have a run for his money XD

Yeah, assuming Sonic is included in the roster, he'd unquestionably be one of the fastest characters in the game, if not THE fastest. However, he'd fall short in other respects; good speed, good handling, but Sonic is not a hard-hitter, and likely no projectile attacks (ranged, we'll talk). High chance of good combo work, though.

My guess on a hypothetic Sonic's final smash, either Chaos Control or Super Sonic. Both could be easily implemented in the game.

[Felix]

[quote="Mr. Smartypants"]It makes it less fun because when people get depended on it, it takes away the need of skill and skill alone because luck then becomes involved. It's no fun when you're at 67%]
I wouldn't go as far as too say that items are all about luck. There's skill in using them properly, too. For instance, putting a bumper at the edge of the map so someone can't get back on or strategically placing a pokeball for the most damage.

But yeah, there's a lot of items I don't like that are just about luck... like the tomato and the hammer. I guess it's fun both ways.

Pity you hate Soul Calibur. Fun game and not a tomato in site XP

[MasterDias]

It makes it less fun because when people get depended on it, it takes away the need of skill and skill alone because luck then becomes involved. It's no fun when you're at 67%, your enemy is at 156%, and your enemy picks up a max tomato or a heart container.

That's happened before when I've played, yes, but I can't say it's happened all that often. However, I can see how that would be annoying. But not all items are about luck. I've liked experimenting a bit with the land mines (or whatever they are called, I forget) in the past and seeing if I can strategically place them.

Oh, and I hate Soul Caliber.

Well, you can substitute that for many other fighting games in his statement, and it will still hold water, for the most part.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

XD I'm not saying I'm bad with items. If my friends want them on, then I turn them on. It's just that I prefer them off because using them requires less of your own skill.

[Hitokiri]

My arguement is that as much as it takes skill at mastering a character and "wavedashing" and such. There is skill in using weapons (note: I don't include pokeballs or health items as such). I love using land mines and pretty good at placing them in out-of-sight areas. Then, not only do you have to remember where you placed it but you have to remember where other characters place thiers. As well, a well placed bat or light sabre can set you up for a nice combo. I think it's harder to play with items because thier are a few more surprises. I have done both items and no items (skill alone) and I prefer items. That's why I can never do tournament play.

I mostly main Roy (and yes I do know he's a n00b character) but I also use Marth, Ganondorf, Mewtwo, and Samus as Secondary.

My favorite is the Assist Trophies. Though will be awesome.

[Shinja]

very little is more fun than smacking aother player with an item^^

[Felix]

because using them requires less of your own skill.

Debatable. There's more skill than just knowing and mastering a characters moves (though that is a big part of it as well) but I won't echo what others have already said.

Honestly, it's a moot point because the game has items, and those of us who like them will play with them on and those who don't, won't. Everyone's happy

[uc pseudonym]

Almost all my friends play with items, but I find without rather enjoyable. Single Button mode is fun too, for similar reasons. Items like Heart Containers or Hammers add an element of randomness that is mildly irritating, but I very much like all the best projectiles. It's fun to throw them just beyond your character's range and take others off guard.

I'm pretty sure he means from an objective standpoint.

Probably, yeah. My main point was that in making an actual decision of character choice, there are more things to consider than objective ranking.

[Fish and Chips]

Items levels the playing field. And while I'm sure Mr. Smartypants is a big name on the tournament circuit board, personally, I play for my own enjoyment; and when there's one person in your group of friends who consistently defeats everyone else near every time in a pure skill match, it's puts something of a damper on competitive spirit.

Besides, the truly skilled warrior can improvise with his surroundings.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

personally, I play for my own enjoyment

Isn't that why we all play?

Anyway, I can easily adapt to using items. If my friends request that items be turned on, I use them to my advantage. I just prefer not having them on because I think it actually unbalances the playing field.

Though I will say that I find it much easier to master items than to master your character.

[Felix]

Though I will say that I find it much easier to master items than to master your character.

Yes, but the circumstances surrounding the item will always vary, so one must improvise.

Playing Smash Bros. without items is like playing Worms without weapons.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Yes, but the circumstances surrounding the item will always vary, so one must improvise.

Playing Smash Bros. without items is like playing Worms without weapons.

1. Yes... I never like... disagreed with that.

2. No... you kind of need weapons in worms.

[Fish and Chips]

Isn't that why we all play?

Taking off how seriously some of you seem to be taking this, I can't help but wonder...

I just prefer not having them on because I think it actually unbalances the playing field.

Continue?

[Taliesin]

I dislike healing items. I'm basically okay with any other item, but healing items really annoy me. You can totally be killing someone, then blast them away and they land on a heart. All that pwnage disappears because of some random quirk. I can deal with healing items, I even enjoy playing with healing items (gasp) I just prefer playing without them.

[Felix]

1. Yes... I never like... disagreed with that.

Did I say you did?

2. No... you kind of need weapons in worms.

XD Not by a long shot. Ninja rope and Prod is all one really needs to play. And before you say it, prod is not a weapon.... it's a gesture. All those other weapons unbalances the game too much If you really want to play with skill, just use ninja rope and prod.

...But anyway, that's another topic for another thread.

The point remains that items are really a matter of preference. Those who want them may have them, those who don't want them may do without. All boats are floated.

[Cognitive Gear]

Here is my take on items:

Off when I play, unless the majority of other players wish them to be on.

I feel that items add an unwelcome element of luck (I even avoid the "random death" arenas. This doesn't include all moving arenas.) and also imbalance alot of the characters. Some characters are deseigned to not have a ranged attack, and when items are added then they will have one simply by picking up any item on the field. Also, the fact that a single item can win the match is ridiculous. When someone wins due to a hammer spawning right next to them, it really detracts from the experience, IMO.

Also I don't think that worms comparison is fair. In worms, you have a stockpile of items for each person to use. In SSB, items randomly disperse throught the match. While items do drop randomly in worms, the nature of the game itself requires items be used.

Regardless, if you like items, continue using them. If you don't like them, don't. But no matter what side you are on, don't rag on other people because of thier preference.

[Hitokiri]

Big Blue is one of my fav SSBM arenas because you not only need to be on your toes from your opponents but also your surroundings. I get bored when I play on FD.