In this show, we talk about the heart warming Ratchet and Clank story, dissect the X-box 360 elite, and discuss Video Game bosses.
Click here to grab the show
Question to the Audience:
What are your most/least favorite Video Game bosses of all time? What do you feel makes a great boss battle?
Gamecast - Episode 22 - "You're not the boss of me!"
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Link Antilles - Posts: 2528
- Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:00 am
- Location: South Carolina
I hate that clam-like creature in StarFox 64 'cause you have to shoot these columns and then shoot it in the eye. Sounds easy enough, but the thing shoots WAY too much bomblike defenses which make it harder to get to your target, and that really cuts down on time to kill the darn thing. If you do it within a short amount of time, you get 11 hits totalled; if longer, it's only 6.
K. Ayato: What happens if you press the small red button?
*Explosion goes off in the movie*
mechana2015: Does that answer your question?
K. Ayato: Perfectly.
Prayer sister of kaji, sticksabuser, Angel37, and Doubleshadow --Love you guys!
*Explosion goes off in the movie*
mechana2015: Does that answer your question?
K. Ayato: Perfectly.
Prayer sister of kaji, sticksabuser, Angel37, and Doubleshadow --Love you guys!
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K. Ayato - Posts: 3881
- Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:00 am
- Location: Southern California
Link, I would probably get along with your talkative gaming friend.
My least favorite boss would probably have to be Mad Jack from the Donkey Kong 64 game. The entire fight takes place on these tall platforms which you need to jump from and to to avoid Jack crushing you but, get this, the camera keeps shifting around, making the simple task of evasion a lot more difficult. You'll jump from one panel to another, directing yourself, and in mid-air the camera will swivel around and lead your character in a different direction. I eventually learned that the camera can be controlled, so I set it at a fixed angle, and then the battle went a lot more smoothly, but nothing is worth that pre-realization frustration.
My favorite boss would probably have to be Psycho Mantis from the original Metal Gear Solid. Just the level of innovation they put into him, proving he's psychic by reading your memory card for Konami titles, blacking out the screen, reading your mind to avoid your shots. It was a well-done battle, and I wish they could have saved it for a little further in the game as an excuse to make it more difficult.
And a special mention goes out to Soulcage from FFIX. He's the boss of the Iifa Tree and, like the majority of enemies encountered down there, his type is undead, which means that for all his talk about "I have seen the end of my thousand-year life, and it is not now," you can just toss a Phoenix Down at him or cast Life and kill him in a single shot on your first turn. Of course, if you don't do that he's one of the most difficult bosses in the entire game. I watched a friend of mine struggle against him for maybe half an hour, and then a month or so later I beat him in less than a minute, on one turn, with one character, and then told him.
So basically, he's like The End from Metal Gear Solid 3 when you turn the game clock ahead a week.
I think a good boss should involve strategy or some other specific exertion of the player's skills. Too many games have bosses that are just bigger and badder versions of standard enemies, whose "Weakness" is just that they have higher HP. These guys are bosses, give me some other challenge aside from increased health and attack stats. Like Psycho Mantis or Sniper Wolf from MGS; both bosses demand you to perform things differently in order to beat them then, say, some nameless moof you can just shoot and stow away the body. Or in FFVI, there's this being that inhabits a painting and transforms back and forth from a cloaked monster to a beautiful woman, and you have to kill the monster without hurting the woman. I'd like to see some more of this.
Link Antilles wrote:Question to the Audience: What are your most/least favorite Video Game bosses of all time?
My least favorite boss would probably have to be Mad Jack from the Donkey Kong 64 game. The entire fight takes place on these tall platforms which you need to jump from and to to avoid Jack crushing you but, get this, the camera keeps shifting around, making the simple task of evasion a lot more difficult. You'll jump from one panel to another, directing yourself, and in mid-air the camera will swivel around and lead your character in a different direction. I eventually learned that the camera can be controlled, so I set it at a fixed angle, and then the battle went a lot more smoothly, but nothing is worth that pre-realization frustration.
My favorite boss would probably have to be Psycho Mantis from the original Metal Gear Solid. Just the level of innovation they put into him, proving he's psychic by reading your memory card for Konami titles, blacking out the screen, reading your mind to avoid your shots. It was a well-done battle, and I wish they could have saved it for a little further in the game as an excuse to make it more difficult.
And a special mention goes out to Soulcage from FFIX. He's the boss of the Iifa Tree and, like the majority of enemies encountered down there, his type is undead, which means that for all his talk about "I have seen the end of my thousand-year life, and it is not now," you can just toss a Phoenix Down at him or cast Life and kill him in a single shot on your first turn. Of course, if you don't do that he's one of the most difficult bosses in the entire game. I watched a friend of mine struggle against him for maybe half an hour, and then a month or so later I beat him in less than a minute, on one turn, with one character, and then told him.
So basically, he's like The End from Metal Gear Solid 3 when you turn the game clock ahead a week.
Link Antilles wrote:What do you feel makes a great boss battle?
I think a good boss should involve strategy or some other specific exertion of the player's skills. Too many games have bosses that are just bigger and badder versions of standard enemies, whose "Weakness" is just that they have higher HP. These guys are bosses, give me some other challenge aside from increased health and attack stats. Like Psycho Mantis or Sniper Wolf from MGS; both bosses demand you to perform things differently in order to beat them then, say, some nameless moof you can just shoot and stow away the body. Or in FFVI, there's this being that inhabits a painting and transforms back and forth from a cloaked monster to a beautiful woman, and you have to kill the monster without hurting the woman. I'd like to see some more of this.
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Fish and Chips - Posts: 4415
- Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:33 pm
- Location: Nowhere.
Oops. Forgot to answer the second question.
Anyway, I think a good boss battle should be more like those in Zelda: Ocarina of Time, where you basically have to use different strategies to lower the boss defenses before you can actually attack. In that game, no attack strategie is exactly the same as another.
Anyway, I think a good boss battle should be more like those in Zelda: Ocarina of Time, where you basically have to use different strategies to lower the boss defenses before you can actually attack. In that game, no attack strategie is exactly the same as another.
K. Ayato: What happens if you press the small red button?
*Explosion goes off in the movie*
mechana2015: Does that answer your question?
K. Ayato: Perfectly.
Prayer sister of kaji, sticksabuser, Angel37, and Doubleshadow --Love you guys!
*Explosion goes off in the movie*
mechana2015: Does that answer your question?
K. Ayato: Perfectly.
Prayer sister of kaji, sticksabuser, Angel37, and Doubleshadow --Love you guys!
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K. Ayato - Posts: 3881
- Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:00 am
- Location: Southern California
On the Halo Bible study, I need to ask a question of clarification: are they actually holding these during a real game session? I assumed they just all stood in a room and talked over the intercom (maybe someone would get shot occasionally for the humor value or if they were being obnoxious). If they’re actually trying to play and study the Bible simultaneously, I don’t think that’s a good idea. I prefer not to hold a serious conversation while playing Halo, much less studying anything.
Now I’m going to spend a fairly long amount of time on bosses, probably.
I remember Culex; good boss fight. What made it tricky was that you had five opponents constantly attacking everyone. Once you could take out a few of the crystals it was manageable, but hanging on at the beginning was tough without some of the secret equipment like the Lazy Shell.
My favorite boss? Overall I think I’ll have to say Virgil from Devil May Cry 3. The battles against him are dramatic and fit into the story well, plus he is a well-designed boss. Pretty hard, but he isn’t cheap: you need to figure out his attacks and have considerable skill to beat him. I actually played him more than once just for the fun of it.
I have to add some honorable mentions, though. The freeware PC game Cave Story has a decent final boss but the secret final boss is much better. It has four different phases that are very well developed. Even with all the weapons and max health, an inexperienced player would die in under a minute and barely dent the boss’s health. With skill, however, it’s a very enjoyable battle. Unfortunately, the boss has no real history before the secret part of the game and so you don’t have anything invested in the fight.
On the other side of things, I think that the final boss of FFX is well done from a story perspective. There’s the scene beforehand that’s resolves one of the emotional plot arcs, then the boss appears looking fairly cool and the music from the beginning (which I love) starts playing. It’s sad that he’ll die in two hits from any character doing 99,999 per shot. This may seem pathetic to some, but I actually killed him with Auron’s best Overdrive in honor of the style shown.
As for my least favorite boss… it would have to be one I just played: the final boss battle in The Matrix: Path of Neo. Not only is it a joke as far as storyline goes, the actual fight is truly boring and lacks no real strategy. You use none of the abilities used in game, simply dodging the boss and pressing X when the screen commands you to. This is by far one of the worst bosses I’ve ever seen.
Now I’m going to spend a fairly long amount of time on bosses, probably.
I remember Culex; good boss fight. What made it tricky was that you had five opponents constantly attacking everyone. Once you could take out a few of the crystals it was manageable, but hanging on at the beginning was tough without some of the secret equipment like the Lazy Shell.
My favorite boss? Overall I think I’ll have to say Virgil from Devil May Cry 3. The battles against him are dramatic and fit into the story well, plus he is a well-designed boss. Pretty hard, but he isn’t cheap: you need to figure out his attacks and have considerable skill to beat him. I actually played him more than once just for the fun of it.
I have to add some honorable mentions, though. The freeware PC game Cave Story has a decent final boss but the secret final boss is much better. It has four different phases that are very well developed. Even with all the weapons and max health, an inexperienced player would die in under a minute and barely dent the boss’s health. With skill, however, it’s a very enjoyable battle. Unfortunately, the boss has no real history before the secret part of the game and so you don’t have anything invested in the fight.
On the other side of things, I think that the final boss of FFX is well done from a story perspective. There’s the scene beforehand that’s resolves one of the emotional plot arcs, then the boss appears looking fairly cool and the music from the beginning (which I love) starts playing. It’s sad that he’ll die in two hits from any character doing 99,999 per shot. This may seem pathetic to some, but I actually killed him with Auron’s best Overdrive in honor of the style shown.
As for my least favorite boss… it would have to be one I just played: the final boss battle in The Matrix: Path of Neo. Not only is it a joke as far as storyline goes, the actual fight is truly boring and lacks no real strategy. You use none of the abilities used in game, simply dodging the boss and pressing X when the screen commands you to. This is by far one of the worst bosses I’ve ever seen.
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uc pseudonym - Posts: 15506
- Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:00 am
- Location: Tanzania
uc pseudonym wrote:On the other side of things, I think that the final boss of FFX is well done from a story perspective. There’s the scene beforehand that’s resolves one of the emotional plot arcs, then the boss appears looking fairly cool and the music from the beginning (which I love) starts playing. It’s sad that he’ll die in two hits from any character doing 99,999 per shot. This may seem pathetic to some, but I actually killed him with Auron’s best Overdrive in honor of the style shown.
Hmmm, then I'm also going to have to throw in another honorable mention for The Sorrow from MGS3. Link will know why.
And one other thing; bosses should be challenging without resorting to being cheap (a.k.a. ultimate health and impossible to avoid insta-killing attacks). That's not a challenge, that's just evil.
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Fish and Chips - Posts: 4415
- Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:33 pm
- Location: Nowhere.
Omega, what you have to realize about the 360 Elite is that that isn't epoxy they added. It's l337sauce. That's what makes the Xbox 360 Elite so dang elite. It has l337sauce.
I'll have to opine about my favorite/least favorite bosses another day, but I may have something to offer as far as guidelines for a good boss fight. As always, your pwnage may vary.
1] Difficulty
It may just be me, but I think games should make you look good. They are, after all, fantasies we engage in to momentarily disengage from the real world, no? This would include boss fights. Boss fights should present a greater challenge than the small horde of cannon fodder you just gunned down/slashed up/magic missile'd to get to them, but shouldn't be overwhelmingly so. Think of the "boss fights" in action movies. The "bosses" usually provide an extra sense of urgency/danger, but the hero can handle them. That's how it should be in a boss fight. You know they'll give you a run for your money, but you are still certain you can handle them. However, a final boss should [IMO] have the feeling of a knock-down, drag-out, all-or-nothing battle for your life, the girl, and the fate of the world as we know it . . . or something like that. The final boss should take all of the tricks you've learned to put down, and then I expect a wicked cutscene to finish it all off.
2] Gimmicks
DO NOT have every boss's weakness be the item you just got in their dungeon. Seriously. That's just lazy game design.
I wish I had something more in-depth or profound to say, but that's it right now.
.rai//
I'll have to opine about my favorite/least favorite bosses another day, but I may have something to offer as far as guidelines for a good boss fight. As always, your pwnage may vary.
1] Difficulty
It may just be me, but I think games should make you look good. They are, after all, fantasies we engage in to momentarily disengage from the real world, no? This would include boss fights. Boss fights should present a greater challenge than the small horde of cannon fodder you just gunned down/slashed up/magic missile'd to get to them, but shouldn't be overwhelmingly so. Think of the "boss fights" in action movies. The "bosses" usually provide an extra sense of urgency/danger, but the hero can handle them. That's how it should be in a boss fight. You know they'll give you a run for your money, but you are still certain you can handle them. However, a final boss should [IMO] have the feeling of a knock-down, drag-out, all-or-nothing battle for your life, the girl, and the fate of the world as we know it . . . or something like that. The final boss should take all of the tricks you've learned to put down, and then I expect a wicked cutscene to finish it all off.
2] Gimmicks
DO NOT have every boss's weakness be the item you just got in their dungeon. Seriously. That's just lazy game design.
I wish I had something more in-depth or profound to say, but that's it right now.
.rai//
[raiden's liveJournal]
[color="Indigo"]"I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you . . . stranger."[/color]
Strollin' in at dawn, wakin' up at noon's gonna catch up to me soon
'Just sleep when you're dead' is what I said 'cause I'm jumpin' off the moon
[color="Indigo"]"I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you . . . stranger."[/color]
Strollin' in at dawn, wakin' up at noon's gonna catch up to me soon
'Just sleep when you're dead' is what I said 'cause I'm jumpin' off the moon
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Raiden no Kishi - Posts: 2518
- Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 10:45 am
- Location: Ticking away/The hours that make up the dull day . . .
I cannot say for certain since I do not attend their sessions, but that thread seems to indicate they read Josh McDowell materials and have their bibles at hand. My guess is that they do not actually play while studying.uc pseudonym wrote:On the Halo Bible study, I need to ask a question of clarification: are they actually holding these during a real game session? I assumed they just all stood in a room and talked over the intercom (maybe someone would get shot occasionally for the humor value or if they were being obnoxious). If they’re actually trying to play and study the Bible simultaneously, I don’t think that’s a good idea. I prefer not to hold a serious conversation while playing Halo, much less studying anything.
However, our question that we posted intentionally covered more situations than what specifically happened to this group. The reason being is that we wanted to explore the subject in general. For a recap, this is the question posted from last episode:
last week's episode thread wrote:What do you think about Bible studies during/before/after games (whether it be online or not)?
Okay, my other comment.
More like \/\/34|{sauce to me.RNK wrote:Omega, what you have to realize about the 360 Elite is that that isn't epoxy they added. It's l337sauce.
Find me on Steam, PlayStation Network (OmegaAmen), Backloggery, Twitter, and Twitch.tv
I am also in the Christian gaming group, Tribe of Judah in the Christian Gamers Alliance.
I am also in the Christian gaming group, Tribe of Judah in the Christian Gamers Alliance.
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Omega Amen - Posts: 1473
- Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 8:58 am
- Location: Florida
Omega Amen wrote:More like \/\/34|{sauce to me.
Well, granted, but M$ would tell you it's l337sauce, anyway. XD
.rai//
[raiden's liveJournal]
[color="Indigo"]"I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you . . . stranger."[/color]
Strollin' in at dawn, wakin' up at noon's gonna catch up to me soon
'Just sleep when you're dead' is what I said 'cause I'm jumpin' off the moon
[color="Indigo"]"I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you . . . stranger."[/color]
Strollin' in at dawn, wakin' up at noon's gonna catch up to me soon
'Just sleep when you're dead' is what I said 'cause I'm jumpin' off the moon
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Raiden no Kishi - Posts: 2518
- Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 10:45 am
- Location: Ticking away/The hours that make up the dull day . . .
Now that was the most entertaining, highly informative, and just plain fun broadcast on radio or TV I think I have ever encountered. I should have done this along time ago. I'm sure it'll be even better once I can tell all the voices apart.
Ratchet and Clank story: Very nice uplifting and relevant story guys. Good choice.
Bosses:
Worst: The chain welding boss in the LOTR game, the one in the crypt in Moria, for the simple reason that I could not figure out how to beat it. I assume it required careful timing and my reflexes were horrible.
I also have to mention LeBlanc from FFX-2, for sheer annoyance factor. A boss should intimidating or impressive, not bothersome and tiresome.
Best: If they count, fighting the aeons in FFX, at the end of the game. I went through the trouble of backtracking through the temples and speaking to the aeons, and had Anima, so I did honestly find it moving when they had to be destroyed.
I think good boss battle incorporates both strategy and relevance to the story. A boss should be designed so they are challenging, but not impossible. Similarly, a boss should not have one excessively obvious or easily exploited flaw. Achilles's Heels on what should have been difficult bosses simply cheapens them.
Also, boss fights that interrupt the flow the story just seem like an excuse to toss in a boss and are the result of poor writing. Since boss fights are typically the climax of a chapter or story and therefore warrant a lot of focus, a shoddily executed boss scene can drag down the quality of the whole game.
Ratchet and Clank story: Very nice uplifting and relevant story guys. Good choice.
Bosses:
Worst: The chain welding boss in the LOTR game, the one in the crypt in Moria, for the simple reason that I could not figure out how to beat it. I assume it required careful timing and my reflexes were horrible.
I also have to mention LeBlanc from FFX-2, for sheer annoyance factor. A boss should intimidating or impressive, not bothersome and tiresome.
Best: If they count, fighting the aeons in FFX, at the end of the game. I went through the trouble of backtracking through the temples and speaking to the aeons, and had Anima, so I did honestly find it moving when they had to be destroyed.
I think good boss battle incorporates both strategy and relevance to the story. A boss should be designed so they are challenging, but not impossible. Similarly, a boss should not have one excessively obvious or easily exploited flaw. Achilles's Heels on what should have been difficult bosses simply cheapens them.
Also, boss fights that interrupt the flow the story just seem like an excuse to toss in a boss and are the result of poor writing. Since boss fights are typically the climax of a chapter or story and therefore warrant a lot of focus, a shoddily executed boss scene can drag down the quality of the whole game.
[color="Red"]As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. - Proverbs 23:7[/color]
The Sundries
Robin: "If we close our eyes, we can't see anything."
Batman: "A sound observation, Robin."
The Sundries
Robin: "If we close our eyes, we can't see anything."
Batman: "A sound observation, Robin."
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Doubleshadow - Posts: 2102
- Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:04 pm
- Location: ... What's burning?
Omega Amen wrote:What do you think about Bible studies during/before/after games (whether it be online or not)?
Though directed toward this specific Bible study, I think what I wrote in the previous thread essentially applies in general as well. If the game is only a medium that brings Christians together, I wouldn't fault it.
Doubleshadow wrote:Best: If they count, fighting the aeons in FFX, at the end of the game. I went through the trouble of backtracking through the temples and speaking to the aeons, and had Anima, so I did honestly find it moving when they had to be destroyed.
Interesting. You must be in the audience they had in mind with that sequence. For myself and most people I know, they disliked this sequence and felt it was fairly tedious. I would have preferred this happen in a cutscene, myself, but if it worked for you that's fine.
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uc pseudonym - Posts: 15506
- Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:00 am
- Location: Tanzania
Wow, a new listener.... We (i.e. the hosts) do not sound that alike, do we?Doubleshadow wrote:Now that was the most entertaining, highly informative, and just plain fun broadcast on radio or TV I think I have ever encountered. I should have done this along time ago. I'm sure it'll be even better once I can tell all the voices apart.
Okay, here is my guide to alleviate listener confusion on who's who in the broadcast:
Link Antilles: Gives the actual "Welcome to the Gamecast" greeting. Actual recorder and moderator of the show (poor kid). Obsessed with guns and games with guns... seriously.
Nate: The nice, friendly, nostalgic one. Yes, the one and only Nate of CAA. Plays Japanese RPGs... a lot of them... multiple times... and then some.
Omega Amen: Ambitious and applies that attitude towards games and gaming hardware, and gets miffed at companies who do not adopt that attitude. Strongly believes that gaming's sole legitimate purpose is to exercise and meditate on ownage.
mastersquirrel: Occasional host with lowest voice. Only host who likes MMO type games. This dude is nuts (it is a squirrel thing).
Find me on Steam, PlayStation Network (OmegaAmen), Backloggery, Twitter, and Twitch.tv
I am also in the Christian gaming group, Tribe of Judah in the Christian Gamers Alliance.
I am also in the Christian gaming group, Tribe of Judah in the Christian Gamers Alliance.
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Omega Amen - Posts: 1473
- Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 8:58 am
- Location: Florida
Omega Amen wrote:Nate: The nice, friendly, nostalgic one.
*is nice and friendly?* o.O
Dunno if many people would agree with you there. XD
Doubleshadow wrote:Best: If they count, fighting the aeons in FFX, at the end of the game.
You know, it's really funny that you mention that fight, because in the discussion before the show, I mentioned it as one of the worst boss fights I've ever played. Not from a storyline perspective; that's obviously how you're looking at it, and I agree from a storyline perspective, it's quite good.
However, I focused on the gameplay itself, and the fact that your characters all have a permanent auto-life on you, that means it is impossible to die. This completely ruins the fight for me. Final boss fights should be difficult, not impossible to lose. If they were going to go to all the trouble of making you unable to die, I think it would have been more appropriate for it to have been in a cutscene, like Omega said.
Ezekiel 23:20
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Nate - Posts: 10725
- Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:00 pm
- Location: Oh right, like anyone actually cares.
Let me put it to you this way.... Comparatively speaking within the host group, you are....Nate wrote:*is nice and friendly?* o.O
Dunno if many people would agree with you there. XD
Though you could make the case Link is really the nice one, but of course, we know that is a complete falsehood since he is a mod. That means the dude is constantly in stealth mode, smoking (i.e. banning) people and killing (i.e. locking) threads left and right, like a cold-hearted sniper who has no remorse.
That can't be nice, right? *winks at Link.*
Find me on Steam, PlayStation Network (OmegaAmen), Backloggery, Twitter, and Twitch.tv
I am also in the Christian gaming group, Tribe of Judah in the Christian Gamers Alliance.
I am also in the Christian gaming group, Tribe of Judah in the Christian Gamers Alliance.
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Omega Amen - Posts: 1473
- Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 8:58 am
- Location: Florida
uc pseudonym wrote:Interesting. You must be in the audience they had in mind with that sequence. For myself and most people I know, they disliked this sequence and felt it was fairly tedious. I would have preferred this happen in a cutscene, myself, but if it worked for you that's fine.
[quote="Nate"]
You know, it's really funny that you mention that fight, because in the discussion before the show, I mentioned it as one of the worst boss fights I've ever played. Not from a storyline perspective]
...
So what your telling me is, I'm the niche demographic they were aiming for and I took the bait hook, line, and sinker. Fabulous. XD
And thanks for the breakdown Omega Amen.
[color="Red"]As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. - Proverbs 23:7[/color]
The Sundries
Robin: "If we close our eyes, we can't see anything."
Batman: "A sound observation, Robin."
The Sundries
Robin: "If we close our eyes, we can't see anything."
Batman: "A sound observation, Robin."
-
Doubleshadow - Posts: 2102
- Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:04 pm
- Location: ... What's burning?
That would be a negative way to look at it. I was thinking more along the lines of you being proof that they weren't entirely crazy when they made that segment. It doesn't work for me, but at least it works for someone.
No, but the task itself is more difficult than one might imagine. Until you learn to match specific intonations to specific people, it is difficult to tell voices that are not immensely dissimilar apart. I can tell who is saying what during the gamecast, but if you gave me a line by only one of you I might not be certain who said it.
Omega Amen wrote:We (i.e. the hosts) do not sound that alike, do we?
No, but the task itself is more difficult than one might imagine. Until you learn to match specific intonations to specific people, it is difficult to tell voices that are not immensely dissimilar apart. I can tell who is saying what during the gamecast, but if you gave me a line by only one of you I might not be certain who said it.
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uc pseudonym - Posts: 15506
- Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:00 am
- Location: Tanzania
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