Canon Mary Sues in Anime

[Fish and Chips]

My definition of Mary Sue is any character who is simply "Too perfect," either in behavior, ability, power level, whatever; child prodigies and god-modders. A good example of the second would be Alucard from Hellsing; he's simply so insanely powerful, no antagonist (save for possibly one) even poses a threat to him, and that sort of ruined his character for me till later chapters.

Of course, that said, a Mary Sue does not a bad story make. Plenty of Anime and Manga are excellent in spite (and occasionally because of) one character's or characters' prowess.

[Puguni]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the most blatant Mary Sue in all of anime's existence:

Tohru Honda.

I was going to, but I was at school. D: XD As much as I like Tohru, yes, she's very Mary Sue. She has no flaws and it seems like the people who don't like her don't hate her because of her character, but because of her existence or their own problems.

If we're going to have this discussion, we need to decide if a Mary Sue is a character who's generally flawed and unappealing or at best dull yet is for some reason beloved and admired by other characters (Miaka in Fushigi Yugi, in the original example) or a character who's flawless beyond believability.

Quite true. I realized that after I read the whole thread over. It's why I posted the Mary Sue article, in hopes that we could base our maxims on that.

I think it might go both ways?

There are sub-concepts listed in the article which might help.

[teigeki_calesa]

I was laughing a bit when I read some of the items in that Mary Sue litmus test, particularly the items concerning family/personal issues. I mean, whoa, if I were a fictional character, I would might as well be a Mary Sue

That being said, the mere fact that the definition of a Sue is rather subjective is the very reason why I don't buy it.

[uc pseudonym]

I disagree, with qualifications. Your original point stands (that people can abuse the term just to justify hatred for a character) but it doesn't actually address one of the main criteria, at least according to many of us: that Mary Sues are cheap wish fulfillment for the author or audience. In my mind that is something that is very real. Certainly it is subjective, but so is any concept, and people do tend to buy ideas like "love," "justice," and "humanity."

[quote="Fish and Chips"]My definition of Mary Sue is any character who is simply "Too perfect," either in behavior, ability, power level, whatever]
As you know, my definition varies somewhat. I think that's also something that can damage a series, I would just prefer to use a term like god-moder to identify it. While characters like Alucard can weaken a series, in my mind they aren't nearly so annoying as Mary Sues (by my definition). With Alucard I can at least root for him while he's doing ridiculous things, whereas Mary Sues are incredibly annoying.

Note that my set of definitions is imperfect because it also has some overlap: god-moding characters can be a form of wish-fulfillment as well.

[Fish and Chips]

Well, I only provided an example of the second, and even then Alucard isn't that "Bad" of an example. The first, child prodigies and such, are rather annoying, yes..

But my original defition of "Too perfect" still stands in my mind.

[teigeki_calesa]

I disagree, with qualifications. Your original point stands (that people can abuse the term just to justify hatred for a character) but it doesn't actually address one of the main criteria, at least according to many of us: that Mary Sues are cheap wish fulfillment for the author or audience. In my mind that is something that is very real. Certainly it is subjective, but so is any concept, and people do tend to buy ideas like "love," "justice," and "humanity."

But there are also a lot of people don't buy those concepts as well. (and some even have nasty things to say about those) Personally, the parenthesized part makes me feel kinda disturbed, but going back to the topic, I have to say that everyone writes for themselves. I mean c'mon, they couldn't care less about what the critic next to them both in RL and OL will say about their works. Authors don't write for them, or anyone else, but for themselves. Noble intentions (and dreams to make it big in the literary field) are big factors to be considered but still, the fact that everyone writes for themselves just shows that wish fulfillment is an inevitable part of the process, whether it's original fiction or fan fiction.

[uc pseudonym]

But there are also a lot of people don't buy those concepts as well.

Heh. Not the response I expected. That's true, but the point my example seems to have obscured was that concepts are by nature subjective. But that doesn't mean they can't be used meaningfully.

Authors don't write for them, or anyone else, but for themselves. Noble intentions (and dreams to make it big in the literary field) are big factors to be considered but still, the fact that everyone writes for themselves just shows that wish fulfillment is an inevitable part of the process, whether it's original fiction or fan fiction.

Well, I hope not. I am a writer of both fan fiction and original fiction and I don't believe any of my characters are Mary Sues. Personally I have some very negative things to say about gratuitous wish fulfillment, so I may be either an exception or a hypocrite.

You're definitely correct that I write for myself (though finding an audience is unfortunately a big part of getting published). But I want to believe that my writing isn't just a cheap attempt to live out a personal fantasy. If it is that makes me a disturbed person, because I write unusual stories.

But my original defition of "Too perfect" still stands in my mind.

Okay. It's not like differing definitions are a problem...

[Bobtheduck]

Nope, I don't believe in Mary Sue ism if you ask me. It's just a convenient excuse to bash a character just because it doesn't suit the basher/s' tastes.

Man, I'm too used to PS3 forums now... I wanted to Rep+ you for that statement. QFT... If Mary Sue can extend past fanfictions, then doesn't it come down to opinion on some level? Come on... Seriously, this seems a bit absurd to me.

I'm writing a story in which the main character is VERY close to me, maybe me if I weren't a Christian. Is that a Mary Sue? If you think it is, i personally think you can take your literary elitism and... Well, put it somewhere out of sight, anyhow. It's just stupid.

[teigeki_calesa]

Man, I'm too used to PS3 forums now... I wanted to Rep+ you for that statement. QFT... If Mary Sue can extend past fanfictions, then doesn't it come down to opinion on some level? Come on... Seriously, this seems a bit absurd to me.

I'm writing a story in which the main character is VERY close to me, maybe me if I weren't a Christian. Is that a Mary Sue? If you think it is, i personally think you can take your literary elitism and... Well, put it somewhere out of sight, anyhow. It's just stupid.

Uh....I think I lost you there.

My...literary elitism? What do you mean?

[Bobtheduck]

Uh....I think I lost you there.

My...literary elitism? What do you mean?

Not "your" literary elitism... Just elitism in general. I'm referring to the way people in general have applied this term to all sorts of other stories. I didn't mean this as a hit against you, specifically. I just disagree with the term's use overall.

In other words, people use a term like this to insult characters they don't like. As if putting yourself in your story is somehow a horrible literary technique. It's a pretty arbitrary "rule." Authors all through history have put themselves into their fiction. It's a pretty natural thing. Even the matter of boosting their own attributes isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, next thing people will say is that it's a bad literary technique to describe your own hometown in the story, or to use your own experiences in fiction. There is no logical reason to call it a bad technique inherently.

EDIT: Actually, I was praising your post, not insulting it. Of course, I guess I didn't make it as clear as I should have. I've been abusing shorthand recently, and have started to forget not everyone knows what I'm saying. For that, I'm sorry. What I said is I quoted your post for truth, meaning what you said was something I wanted to say, and I said I wanted to increase your reputation, a feature some other Vbulletin based forums have. I started praising your post, then said why I had a problem with the usage of the term, basically agreeing with you but expanding on it by giving my own reasons. Sorry for the confusion.

[Tommy]

I thought this was a thread about some lady named Canon Mary suing an anime. XD

Seriously, you guys have come up with a lot of great points, but I don't have any that haven't been used.

I was going to come in and say Tohru Honda, but someone beat me to it.

[uc pseudonym]

If Mary Sue can extend past fanfictions, then doesn't it come down to opinion on some level?

I'm not sure I understand your point here. How is it not a matter of opinion in fanfiction as well?

I'm writing a story in which the main character is VERY close to me, maybe me if I weren't a Christian. Is that a Mary Sue? If you think it is, i personally think you can take your literary elitism and... Well, put it somewhere out of sight, anyhow.

Unless you revel in whatever this character does as a non-Christian, I rather doubt (or perhaps just hope) that few people here would call it a Mary Sue. There's nothing immediately wrong with putting yourself into a story, though I feel it has many pitfalls, and especially not with borrowing heavily from your own personality in order to make a character. After all, it is good to write what you know. But the reason I've continued to post in this thread is because I do feel there is something significantly wrong when an author's self insertion makes the story an exercise in fulfillment of the author's desires.

Authors all through history have put themselves into their fiction.

Pornography also has a long history, and I would suggest for the same reason as Mary Sues exist: it is a form of self-gratification. Let me clarify that by saying that I'm not condemning this practice nor even directly attacking your point. However, I do mean to say that things that are done often are not necessarily right, and to hopefully illuminate why I think this term is worth keeping.

[teigeki_calesa]

bobtheduck>thanks for clarifying youself AND agreeing with my post. But honestly, the irony is that it's elitism that prompted me to make that post. Frankly, I'm exasperated with all the "I'm greater than thou coz your fan/original fic OC is a Mary Sue" drama in the forums that I step into. It's making the concept of a Mary Sue sound like a ridiculous gimmickry for fan elitism.

[TriezGamer]

What's wrong with Mary Sues? Wasn't Jesus one?

...

OK, sorry, I just felt like I had to throw that out there

I'll go back to my hole now.

[uc pseudonym]

For the record, I've never been involved in an actual situation where people are abusing this term, so perhaps that is why I embrace its usage more readily than others.

What's wrong with Mary Sues? Wasn't Jesus one?

You know, you could write a sermon on that, actually. There are potentially some interesting lessons to pull from this parallel, if only it was one that would mean anything to your average congregation. I'd be moving from the perspective that he wasn't, but there's no need to go there now.

[Mave]

What's wrong with Mary Sues? Wasn't Jesus one?

If you go by the general definition of "unbelievably perfect," sure thing. I'll embrace this type of Mary Sue, which brings me to state that I'm perfectly fine with Tohru Honda (pun intended). XD

However, I tend to frown at the other type of Mary Sue --> "the incredibly annoying, weak, dumb, and YET for some bizarre reason, everyone loves them and they can pwn everyone" aka unbelievably LUCKY ones. I think 'harem' series typically fall victim to this a lot, whether it's a bunch of girls loving the same dude or a bunch of guys loving the same girl.....

[Bobtheduck]

However, I tend to frown at the other type of Mary Sue --> "the incredibly annoying, weak, dumb, and YET for some bizarre reason, everyone loves them and they can pwn everyone" aka unbelievably LUCKY ones. I think 'harem' series typically fall victim to this a lot, whether it's a bunch of girls loving the same dude or a bunch of guys loving the same girl.....

I knew a guy once who never chased after the girls... He didn't really do anything spectacular. It's not like he was "super helper" and did everything for everyone. He wasn't particularly good looking, though I'll admit that is a matter of opinion and being a guy I'm not likely the best judge. He honestly wasn't very smart, yet he still had girls all over him for no other reason than they were entranced by his averageness... I guess Mary Sues exist in real life, too...

Oh, and it makes more sense for a lot of guys to like the same girl. Guys go for looks first and foremost. So, Lum having 100 potential suiters is just fine even though she's an arrogant little brat because she's hot. That's all those guys care about. Not only hot, but exposed in an ignorant sort of way. She walks around everywhere in a bikini and doesn't understand why that's not normal. There is NOTHING special about Lum, at least not early on (she matures as she gets older, though remains nearly as clueless) but the guys chase her because they think she's more attractive than the other girls. Plain and simple...

I don't get the other harem shows, but as I've demonstrated, it's not like they're not possible. With something like Nadesico (which isn't QUITE a harem show) I think the three girls are into Akito because he's the only guy on board who's different, but not a complete suckup and overly submissive like the captain's shadow (I can't seem to remember his name) Other than that, I don't get the Harem shows...

[RedMage]

With something like Nadesico (which isn't QUITE a harem show) I think the three girls are into Akito because he's the only guy on board who's different, but not a complete suckup and overly submissive like the captain's shadow (I can't seem to remember his name)

Poor Jun. Nobody even remembers his name.

[Jih]

So anime isn't a place for people who want to see something different with its millions of shows that are the same. I concur.

[Fiore teh Duck]

Watase Yuu has a lot of Mary Sue characters...which is why avoid many of her manga with all due haste ><

[uc pseudonym]

So what am I left with? ]
Canon fanfiction and normal fiction?

I'm aware that may not be helpful, but I don't think the situation is as bleak as you paint it. Those who say that certain things absolutely cannot be done in an original character are being stubborn, in my opinion. You seem to have a good grasp of what is wrong with many Mary Sues, and just because a character has some of those traits doesn't mean it exists for those reasons. At least I hope so; I have original characters in fanfiction and I don't think they are me in any way.

2. Original characters may not be the best at anything, or the only one of anything, or otherwise exceptional. Writers of other canon can do this, but I/you/we cannot.

Not necessarily. A new character can be the best at something so long as it makes sense (I'd give an example, but I don't be certain what series you know) they just shouldn't be the best at everything. So long as they respect the general laws of the world they can be very powerful/skilled.

3. Original characters may not have sad childhoods. If you had a sad childhood and want to write about it, you are a Mary Sue and ought to shut up because nobody wants to hear about it.

Not at all, I would say. There's a world of a difference between a character with a sad backstory and one with a horribly gratuitous one. And if you have a sad childhood and want to write about it, why do it in fanfiction?

5. An original character who gets a lot of romantic attention is unrealistic and should be avoided, since the traits that would get someone a lot of romantic attention are unrealistic and should be avoided, and in any case this is pure wish fulfillment.

Well... this is the one on which I'm most cynical, actually. I don't understand what literary value an original character who is liked by everyone canon possesses. Being attractive is hardly unrealistic, but it is rather unlikely for a large group of very diverse people to all fall madly in love with one individual.