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Christian Themes in Trigun
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 10:52 pm
by mikas
Hey, I started this thread cause i noticed very few people noticed how heavy the Christian themes were in Trigun. I don't want to say all the ones i saw now cause i want to see what others noticed but there are a ton, and they're really hard to miss. It baffles me when i see people say trigun is just a silly fluff series cause i see so much in it, but maybe thats just me
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 6:48 am
by thalia
Though at first 'Trigun' may seem like a lot of "silly fluff," it really is much deeper than that. I noticed many Christian themes in the series, especially with Vash's motto of "Love & Peace." Also, Vash's unwillingness to kill anyone. Also, many other characters display compassion, mercy, and forgiveness in the series.
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 10:23 am
by uc pseudonym
Considering that there have been several threads about Christian themes in Trigun, I seriously doubt that it is a point that has been missed by everyone. I enjoyed seeing them as well... and many Christians could actually learn something from Vash's philosophy on violence.
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 1:01 pm
by Lynx
Yeah, i agree with you, mikas. there are A LOT of christian themes in trigun, there had to be a christian working on the anime or something. I've also read the manga, but some of the symbolism seems to be missing from the manga, but that could be cuz i haven't read trigun maximum.
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 5:53 pm
by mikas
Hey sorry i should clarify what i meant by "christian themes" cause i know theres been threads about that. It was the best phase I could think of at the time. I wanted to be more specific than just "love and peace sounds christian" while i totally agree in my humble opinion theres much more than accurate moral lessons. In fact I go as far as to say that Wolfwood accepts christ in the end. I mean he goes into a church lays down his burden (his cross which i definately think represents his burden) and ask God to forgive him. Then again this could all be in my mind
. I'm pretty sure it's not though, but oh well i was just wondering if anyone else saw that much.
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 6:04 pm
by mikas
oh, heh sorry to post twice in a row but i forgot something. about saying no one noticed christian themes in trigun i was exagerating (i tend to do that alot). It just seemed like on most of the threads i read all people could say was a few minor snippits like love and peace or nothing at all. I did find a couple that went further but not as much as i expected (I'm a little over obsessed with the series and think everyone should adore it as much as i do
j/k) heh sorry i think i'm over explaining myself, oh well.
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 6:46 pm
by Hitokiri
Heres some stuff I noticed and I found on a site
The use of Apples. For instance, Chapel the Evergreen uses apples for training. The reason I drew up from about the apple bieng green was of Humans redemption. Why Wolfwood decided not to kill his mentor when he had the chance. While on the topic of Wolfwood...
WOLFWOOD!! Though he is the opposite what a real priest should be, he does show some qualities such as his love for children. It shows Human kinds weakness throgh Wolfwood that we aren't perfect.
Eden. Eden is used when Project SEEDS is created by creating another Eden on another world. Creating two lifeforms to live on here (vash and Knives).
Vash and Knives
Vash and Knives resemble Adam and Eve. When Eve ate the apple, she had Adam eat the apple to much like what happened with Vash and Knives, Knives corrupting Vash.
Oh yeah and also Vash's belief in not killing and Love and Peace and Rem Savrem believing Vash and Knives were a gift from God.
I got some of this info from a site. I had to edit some of the stuff that I didn't partially agree with that I knew was wrong.
Oh yeah the person who wrote the Christian refrences though that Wolfwood and Milly had the baby (the episode of the two kids who fled from that caravan and Milly put the girl into her coat...thats why th eperson though he was with child
)
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 6:53 pm
by Ingemar
>Vash and Knives
Vash and Knives resemble Adam and Eve. When Eve ate the apple, she had Adam eat the apple to much like what happened with Vash and Knives, Knives corrupting Vash.
I disagree. The Adam and Eve analogy only goes as far as the fact that Vash and Knives are the first (concious) inhabitants of Gunsmoke. Another analogy that can be drawn is Jesus/Satan, but you would have to accept either dualism/Manicheism or the ridiculous belief that Jesus and Satan are brothers. That is, it appears that, despite having the same experiences, Vash is inherently good and Knives inherently evil (based on their responses to different things, like Rem's love and that drunkard's abuse).
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 7:25 pm
by Ashley
I always thought of Vash and Knives as more a Cain/Abel relationship personally, but with an obviously different ending...
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 7:33 pm
by Ingemar
Here's a post of mine (when I was St. Peter, lol) about Christian attitudes/Vash/Knives...
Me wrote:I'm annoyed that relativists and people who don't believe in good and evil merely dismiss Knives as a "victim of circumstance." They blame his hatred of the human race on his poor upbringing. This, to me is a weak argument because Vash recieved the same amount of education/abuse from the human crew of SEEDS and ended up cherishing all life. If two brothers live in the same environment with the same influences and end up acting totally different from each other, then their differences are attributable to a fundamental difference in their personality and convictions. In other words, they themselves are responsible for how they turn out. We see that Vash is more emotionally sensitive while Knives is more logically minded. I will consider three things...
1. Their education about Earth. They learned humans fight amongst themselves and are chiefly responsible for the deterioration of the environment.
2. Rem's lessons on morality.
3. Steve's abuse.
The two react to the three situations in different ways. Knives is more receptive to 1 while Vash is more receptive to 2. This shows itself chiefly in their attitude concerning number 3. Vash is primarily concerned with how to get along with everyone while Knives looks at everything at a cause-and-effect basis and adapts himself and his surroundings to his favor. In situation 3, Vash cries because he can't get along with Steve while Knives applies his education from 1 to ameliorate their situation, primarily the whole "thinking of the smallest sacrifice one can make to survive". Of course, the primary rift between the two occurs during...
4. The spider-butterfly incident.
The emotional Vash wants to preserve the butterfly without harming the spider but the logical Knives knows that in order for one to survive, the other will die.
Another thing that annoys me is how people try to say Vash or Knives is "right" when it comes to the spider-fly argument. IMHO they're both wrong. Vash is wrong because of the reasons Knives stated. Knives is wrong because 1.) He assumes the spider can only subsist on butterflies 2.) His paradigm dictates that an entire species of animal needs to be destroyed to preserve another. This means he decides who lives and who dies, which is playing God. People whine about how Rem's teachings "corrupted" Vash into a "spineless coward", but considering her slight Judeo-Christian leanings, I think she meant something deeper like "It's not up to us who lives or dies." And Vash isn't so stringent when it comes to his no-killing policy. He likes to eat meat.
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 7:53 pm
by Lynx
There's really some great truth in trigun... that part with wolfwood in episode 23 when he's in the church is especially cool, yet so sad...
(see? spoiler free!) anyways, i definatly think there's some cool stuff you could draw out of that anime, and so far it's the only anime i've seen that you could do that with.
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 12:46 pm
by uc pseudonym
Personally, I would not attempt to put any allegory on anything that was not intended to be so. Even if we are just finding messages, I'd be also reluctant to put Vash and Knives in any specific roles. Their relationship can be taken for what it is, not necessarily forced into any molds.
I agree with a lot of what Ingemar posted.
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 1:13 pm
by Hitokiri
yeah I dont trust the source from where i got my info from really. They the term "Angels Aamrs" (th ehuge fun thing that sprouds from vashs and knives arms is somehow religious yet he can't pinpoint where
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 1:45 pm
by uc pseudonym
The Angel Arms are named such mainly because they get wings when they use them. This is far more obvious in the manga.
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 10:22 pm
by Ducky
I'm slightly biased in Trigun's favor as it was my first real anime but I have to agree that there is a mess of good stuff in it. Admittedly it isn't perfect. I like the apple analogies, green representing salvation and life especially on such a dead planet and all and the red one that Knifes ate representing sin and death, after all that is right before he starts killing people and the like. In my mind Wolfwood will always have converted at the last possible moment (there is evidence to make a case for this but it's already been presented and even if it isn't particularly strong in my mind he did
). I also like to think of Vash's red coat as being under the blood and Vash just being a representation of someone living out the christian life despite persecution and the like. And then Rem is just the Godly rolemodel who raised him and i can obsess in peace. I'd like to point out that my red coat thing breaks down fairly quickly for numerous reasons but i can ignore those and go on in blissful ignorance. It is actually pretty funny to try to tell people about Wolfwood's cross punisher though. Some friends and I told our small group leader and she was pretty disgusted at the idea of using a cross as a weapon and such-like but that's what crosses have always been... weapons, you generally aren't killed by pretty decorations....anyway i'm off topic so i'll stop rambling now.
