CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

[SIZE="5"][color="DarkOrange"]NOTICE![/color]
I don't think the points I make in my argument you are about to read to be right, accurate, or something that you must agree with. In Fact, I'm posting to learn about what, if anything, is wrong with my points. Also interested in other opinions. Sorry if this is in the wrong place. It's hard to tell where a post like this should go.[/SIZE]

I saw a video sometime ago where someone was making an argument against people who were posting that Naruto isn't a kids show or something like that. Well his video just showed Just showed commercials during a show were toys were being sold about Naruto.

now granted he made a point, but not what he thought he'd did. He simply showed that naruto is directed to kids or that at least they realize the "child" audience.


But lets look at another point in this argument. Is Naruto not a child show but a teenager show? Are there things that a child probably should not see in a show yet a teenager could probably see? (please don't use that Tween crap. if your under 13, you're still a child.)

I think think the answer is a very strong YES. Here are the main points on why I think this.

1. Good amounts of blood.
-true it's not by much and cartoon network does a lot of editing. But it's still violence.

2. Death comes up a lot.
-This is my weakest point since there are plenty of PG rated movies that mention death. This is just a personal opinion on what a child should see.

3. "Pervy Sage"
-can a "children's show" really contain a character like him? Seriously

4. "Sexy no Jutsu"
- a lot of skin gets shown in a few scenes plus how Naruto acts while in this jutsu.

5. The emotional state of a few characters
- Garra: "I will kill you all" Saskue: "I will kill my brother"

6. Talk of resurrecting the dead.
- Call me old fashion but I think you should be at least a teenager before you hear anything that sounds like or relates to magic, voodo, witchcraft. (Like I said, I'm old fashioned)

well thats all I have. Remember I don't think my total argument is correct, just an interesting thought.

Moved to the Anime forum.

I have an 11 year old brother who watches this show with me, and I have to admit, sometimes I wish he wasn't in the room. The problem with Naruto isn't really the violence, rather the amount of it. What I consider "a kid's show" has one problem per episode, and by the end, everything is ok. Of course, you do have your two-episode specials, but for the most part, battles don't drag out for hmmm..what was the last long Naruto stretch? 6 episodes?!?! The severity of content in Naruto makes me think that the marketing is a bit skewed. Honestly, I think that the show fits in the teenager bracket....the Cartoon Network & YTV (Canada) probably recieved footage from the first bit of teh series, which isn't bad, however this is one of those series that gets darker as it continues. *sigh* Rant over now.

The show in Japan is marketed to not necessarily the "child" segment, although they get it too, but rather the pre-teen segment, as are the rest of the Jump titles like Yu-gi-Oh (which in the first Manga is actually kind of Psychotic). It may just be a bit of culture shock on our part. Different expectations are placed on kids in different parts of the world.

It runs in freaking Shounen Jump. That's like a solid 11-15 demographic with a really wide periphery ranging from like 5 to 30.

I'd call it a pre-teen show. Anything objectionable in it is purely PG-13 material, nothing much higher. Tons of kids watch PG-13 movies, so it's fine, for them. People who try to use the nudity and violence to call it some dark adult series are just trying to make themselves seem more mature, IMO. Granted, I really wouldn't want anyone, well, under 8 seeing it, but I'm extremely old-fashioned.

When American companies see a 12-year-old boy as the leading character of a series, they automatically think that the show is for kids and that's who they sell it to. The fact that it's a cartoon doesn't help. Though anime has been established as something separate from American cartoons, many still associate cartoons with children and don't make the distinction between anime and American animation. A cast of characters starring young kids only further indicates, to those who don't know, that Naruto is for children. Here comes the culture shock that Etoh mentioned. It's important for companies to know as much as they can about a series before they decide how to market it. In my opinion, no one under 13 or 14 should watch anime (unless it like Pokemon or something).

Huh... I didn't notice any of that over the eternal flashbacks.

Aside from some of the pervy stuff, there isn't much there that a kid couldn't handle. It's certainly far from adult though.

LadyRushia (post: 1227527) wrote:It's important for companies to know as much as they can about a series before they decide how to market it. In my opinion, no one under 13 or 14 should watch anime (unless it like Pokemon or something).

AMEN!!!:thumbsup:
Even shows where much of the "mature" content is cleaned up still will have stuff that could definetly confuse someone under that age group.....For example, even the 4kids dub of Sonic X (while trying to aim more for the little ppl diolouge wise) still had some real serious stuff.....not compared to Naruto, by far, but it's still there....

something I forgot to add to my thoughts

Where are they getting this "Adult anime" from? I feel it's a ignorant term to describe the show. Sure I agree it's not a child show but it certainly not adult. Adult should be used for things like Elfen Lied, Akira, or something like those.

Right. Naruto isn't adult, but isn't childish either. I guess that made it hard to decide where to air it.

roadoffew (post: 1227560) wrote:something I forgot to add to my thoughts

Where are they getting this "Adult anime" from? I feel it's a ignorant term to describe the show. Sure I agree it's not a child show but it certainly not adult. Adult should be used for things like Elfen Lied, Akira, or something like those.

Well it's an entirely subjective opinion to him.

The majority of the world will more than likely disagree with him.

Tons of anime can be considered as "adult". Mostly titles that go under the genre of "Josei" or "Seinen". i.e. Monster, Paranoia Agent, Honey and Clover, etc.

._. I was reading manga online one day in high school, and someone caught me at an inopportune fanservice moment. I got in trouble, but I admitted that I had been reading adult comics and that it wouldn't happen again.

But they all thought I was admitting to reading porno.

minakichan (post: 1227577) wrote:._. I was reading manga online one day in high school, and someone caught me at an inopportune fanservice moment. I got in trouble, but I admitted that I had been reading adult comics and that it wouldn't happen again.

But they all thought I was admitting to reading porno.

Some people just don't understand o.O If only they gave mangas a try eh?

Yeah, the whole kids being in an anime automatically makes it a kids show >_> I guess that's what they thought about Case Closed: Detective Conan o.o

I would say Naruto isn't all that of a kids show o.o Sure, it's animeted, but just because it is doesn't mean it's for little kids o.o There's a lot of adult themes in that show. As ROF named o.o

The action figures are just to better promote the show.

minakichan (post: 1227577) wrote:._. I was reading manga online one day in high school, and someone caught me at an inopportune fanservice moment. I got in trouble, but I admitted that I had been reading adult comics and that it wouldn't happen again.

But they all thought I was admitting to reading porno.

Wrong choice of words... :\

well a good point to keep in mind is that Japan has much different opinions of what is acceptable to young viewers than here in the US... I remember my sister (who's 18) deciding she's too mature for Inuyasha (which I love) because it was intended for 6-10 year olds... seriously, Inuyasha. Yet in Japan... everything has a different connotation.
Naruto is in the same ilk as Shaman King, Yu-Gi-Oh and a number of other Jump titles... arguably even Bleach (another of my faves)... the appeal here is far different from what the appeal is in Japan...

Minaki summed up what I would've said pretty well. The manga (and as an extension, the anime) are for 11-15 year olds. That (more or less) qualifies as a "children's" show. The problem is that people are trying to look at it from a perspective of what we deem appropriate for kids over here, which isn't going to work. It'd be like if I tried to look at American entertainment from the point of view of the UAE and then said that Grimm Adventures of Billy and Mandy was an adult cartoon. It would be a dumb idea because the standards for what's appropriate in the UAE is different from what's appropriate in America, and likewise what's appropriate in America is different from what's appropriate in Japan.

The problem is, the audience that American anime companies are marketing Naruto to is exactly the same as the audience in Japan, but because Americans are absolutely notorious for being overprotective of children, the content has to be changed. Not because the kids can't handle it (Japan proves this), but because American parents whine too much.

Nate (post: 1227961) wrote:
The problem is, the audience that American anime companies are marketing Naruto to is exactly the same as the audience in Japan, but because Americans are absolutely notorious for being overprotective of children, the content has to be changed. Not because the kids can't handle it (Japan proves this), but because American parents whine too much.

So when I have kids, I want them to handle a perv and thinks that's, what, normal behavior? Japan is not a Christian nation; their morality comes from a principle of harmony or wa, and if something doesn't take away from it, it's all cool or at least it is in the right context(boys, pervs, shucks, that's okay).

I mean, it may not take up much time in the series, but it really has no purpose; take it out; we know Naruto is a rebel.

oro! wrote:So when I have kids, I want them to handle a perv and thinks that's, what, normal behavior?

lol wut? Every episode of Naruto I've seen, when Jiraiya acts like a total perv, he not only gets beaten up or yelled at, everyone else looks down on him and says he's disgusting.

Usually people do not get beaten up, yelled at, or looked down upon for normal behavior. So uh, your argument here makes no sense.
[quote]Japan is not a Christian nation]
lol wut? again. Japan isn't a Christian nation, you're right about that. The native religion of Japan is Shinto/Buddhism. Hey, do you want to know something interesting about Shinto and Buddhism? They have almost all of the same moral laws Christianity has! Do not kill, do not get drunk, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and yes, even do not indulge in the flesh! Imagine that!

So sorry to burst your bubble about "Non-Christianity makes them not care about morality." By the way you do realize that America, which is a predominantly Christian nation, produces about 211 new porno videos every WEEK, right?

OR maybe it could be that the majority religion in the country has NOTHING to do with the entertainment produced!

That still doesn't change the fact that whenever a perverted character shows up in an anime or manga, they are almost NEVER portrayed as positive. They may be super strong and powerful, like Jiraiya or Happosai, but everyone still thinks they're pervert scum and don't really care for them. So wait, Japan portrays perverts NEGATIVELY? How is that against morality?

The point I was making is that America DOES censor way too much and think children are incapable of handling anything, which is ridiculous. And for what good does it do? How much higher is the rate of teen pregnancy, or abortions, in America compared to European countries where they show nudity on mainstream television? How much higher is the rate of violence in America compared to other countries where they can show characters in TV shows bleeding or dying?

Granted these comparisons aren't completely accurate because you have to take into account that America is more densely populated than most other countries, but it's worth thinking about, that in places where children are NOT shielded completely from bad content, they seem to act more civil and decent than in a country where children ARE shielded completely from bad content.

I grew up in a time period where they allowed Roy Folker on Robotech to die in the run of the series. That would never happen in cartoons today. It was a touching, emotional moment that really stuck with a lot of kids. Nowadays you can't even say the word "die" in a children's cartoon. How is this progress?

I have to agree with Nate there. Completely shielding children isn't going to help anything, but there has to be a balance. I think it comes down to knowing your kids and understanding their maturity level before they learn about certain things in the world. Each parent should be the judge of what his own kids can handle. I know some kids who are quite mature for their age and could probably handle some more complexities in story lines and such. Each person is different, children included.

Oh to clarify, I wasn't saying "Let's expose our children to everything bad!" That would be stupid and irresponsible. I'm not calling for full-blown nudity and sex on children's TV shows. All I'm saying is removing references to death, blood, and maybe even SOME nudity, is ridiculous. By some nudity, what I mean is, they cut out a scene in One Piece where Luffy and Usopp jump into the baths and you see their butts for like one second. Cartoon Network cut that out, yet, they still show a scene in Dexter's Laboratory where you see Dexter's butt for about five seconds while he's showering. A little, I don't know, CONSISTENCY would be nice.

Nate (post: 1228103) wrote:lol wut? Every episode of Naruto I've seen, when Jiraiya acts like a total perv, he not only gets beaten up or yelled at, everyone else looks down on him and says he's disgusting.

Usually people do not get beaten up, yelled at, or looked down upon for normal behavior. So uh, your argument here makes no sense.

lol wut? again. Japan isn't a Christian nation, you're right about that. The native religion of Japan is Shinto/Buddhism. Hey, do you want to know something interesting about Shinto and Buddhism? They have almost all of the same moral laws Christianity has! Do not kill, do not get drunk, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and yes, even do not indulge in the flesh! Imagine that!

So sorry to burst your bubble about "Non-Christianity makes them not care about morality." By the way you do realize that America, which is a predominantly Christian nation, produces about 211 new porno videos every WEEK, right?

OR maybe it could be that the majority religion in the country has NOTHING to do with the entertainment produced!

That still doesn't change the fact that whenever a perverted character shows up in an anime or manga, they are almost NEVER portrayed as positive. They may be super strong and powerful, like Jiraiya or Happosai, but everyone still thinks they're pervert scum and don't really care for them. So wait, Japan portrays perverts NEGATIVELY? How is that against morality?

The point I was making is that America DOES censor way too much and think children are incapable of handling anything, which is ridiculous. And for what good does it do? How much higher is the rate of teen pregnancy, or abortions, in America compared to European countries where they show nudity on mainstream television? How much higher is the rate of violence in America compared to other countries where they can show characters in TV shows bleeding or dying?

Granted these comparisons aren't completely accurate because you have to take into account that America is more densely populated than most other countries, but it's worth thinking about, that in places where children are NOT shielded completely from bad content, they seem to act more civil and decent than in a country where children ARE shielded completely from bad content.

I grew up in a time period where they allowed Roy Folker on Robotech to die in the run of the series. That would never happen in cartoons today. It was a touching, emotional moment that really stuck with a lot of kids. Nowadays you can't even say the word "die" in a children's cartoon. How is this progress?

Ehh...just forget what I said...what little Naruto I watched, it was so long ago, that it just doesn't count(especially in my memory)...all I'm saying is why should we live in an immoral society? People say they don't like morality shoved down their necks. I don't like the opposite, especially from an early age.

oro! (post: 1228145) wrote:Ehh...just forget what I said...what little Naruto I watched, it was so long ago, that it just doesn't count(especially in my memory)...all I'm saying is why should we live in an immoral society? People say they don't like morality shoved down their necks. I don't like the opposite, especially from an early age.

Then don't watch television.

The grim truth is children are going to be exposed to this. Not saying you should welcome them home with obscenities, but there is a choice between in your home and in their world, and how far you trust your authority.

Nate wrote:By some nudity, what I mean is, they cut out a scene in One Piece where Luffy and Usopp jump into the baths and you see their butts for like one second. Cartoon Network cut that out, yet, they still show a scene in Dexter's Laboratory where you see Dexter's butt for about five seconds while he's showering. A little, I don't know, CONSISTENCY would be nice.

Yeah, seriously. I guess foreign butts would cause too much of a culture shock (lol bad joke). It's probably better to stick with good old American butts.

Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, Rurouni Kenshin, Yu Yu Hakusho, Hunter X Hunter, Shaman King and so forth (and even Death Note) were aimed for approximately the same demographic in Japan but due to different perceptions, often got targeted at different audiences in America...
...which is why Naruto is on Toonami, and Bleach is on Adult Swim.

Although, I'm not completely sure how I feel about a whole generation of 11-year olds reading Jojo's Bizarre Adventure?

By some nudity, what I mean is, they cut out a scene in One Piece where Luffy and Usopp jump into the baths and you see their butts for like one second. Cartoon Network cut that out, yet, they still show a scene in Dexter's Laboratory where you see Dexter's butt for about five seconds while he's showering. A little, I don't know, CONSISTENCY would be nice.

While I don't doubt Cartoon Network would have cut that out, that edit was originally 4kids' doing, and they have always cut out anything even remotely offensive.

MasterDias (post: 1228260) wrote:Although, I'm not completely sure how I feel about a whole generation of 11-year olds reading Jojo's Bizarre Adventure?

I lol'd.

I'm fairly certain most Shounen magazines are aimed at the entire teen demographic, ages 13 to 19, so material tends to be across the board, at worst just short of "Adult." So running back to back, titles like Naruto and One Piece appeal to a younger group, whereas Death Note and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure the next page over side with an older audience. All in the same issue.

I love this argument. I can also solve it quickly:

1)ORIGINALLY, it was not a kids show. It was directed towards teens and even adults. If you pick up one of the first 3 mangas(I dont remember which) it shows sasuke covered in blood and stabbed with hundreds of knives. Now, it is edited a great deal in the anime, and even more in the dub of the anime, but the point remains. If people who make animes would stay more true to the original, then childrens anime would stay for kids and adult/teen anime would keep with adults.

POINT IS: It wasn't a kids anime originally, but I feel that it has been edited enough from the original to border the 13 year old range.

Nate (post: 1227961) wrote:Americans are absolutely notorious for being overprotective of children, the content has to be changed. Not because the kids can't handle it (Japan proves this), but because American parents whine too much.

I wouldn't say that Japan has necessarily "proved" this. Thousands of other potential factors besides censorship of entertainment can result in different reactions to content between children of different national heritage.

Child A in Country A who follows Customs A, B, and C, who associates with paradigms A, B, and C can behaviorally react to certain content differently than a child who was raised differently. For starters, nearly all East-Asian countries are collectivist societies, whereas the US focuses more towards individualism. How much of a factor that example can play in is indeed debatable, but I would imagine that it can probably play some role into it.

Mr. SmartyPants (post: 1228702) wrote:IFor starters, nearly all East-Asian countries are collectivist societies, whereas the US focuses more towards individualism.

I won't argue with you that the societies are different, in fact that is a very good explanation. But I will argue the point of the US focusing more towards individualism. Looking at it from a first person perspective of a normal citizen, sure it looks like we are all working on individualism. But widen the picture a bit, look at everyone at once. When you think about it on that level you see that the individualism is merely a smokescreen. We may seem like individuals, but we really work more like a hive...a hivemind if you will. If you have noticed lately, people seem to have stopped thinking for themselves a good deal, letting marketing and media skew their perspectives. This leads to more and more people not only thinking similar, thinking the same. As we go down this path, it may still seem like individualism on the basic level...but on the more advanced levels it is definitely something different.


Ha, I love crazy rants.