CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

MBS Gundam 00 TV Spot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhr91Cvush4&eurl=

Now that Mobile Suit Gundam 00 is out, I have the opportunity to discuss this subject all over again (I say "again", because the same topic came up for Gundam Wing):

Are the protagonists terrorists?

The answer, when it came to Gundam Wing was "Yes". That was the agreed result of the discussion years ago at another forum, but I could briefly summarize- The actions of the Gundam pilots fit the definition of terrorism.

Yes, that's about it...

Unfortunately (at least for those who care, and don't like the somewhat debatable facts), the protagonists of Gundam 00 are also terrorists, this time belonging to a bona-fide terrorist organization called "Celestial Being" (How's that for "Playing God" undertones?)

Fortunately (also for those who care, and are rooting for the protagonists because they're... protagonists) there is one big difference between the Gundam Wing pilots and the Gundam 00 pilots: Conscience, or at least a sort of caring capacity as far as the act of "terror making" is concerned. You see, the 00 pilots know that they're terrorists committing terrorist acts, and at least some of them have a nagging doubt as to whether "this would all work out" or "is this ultimately the right thing to do" (evidenced in the last scenes when Phase 2 was under way, note the dialog between the crew members, and at least two "Gundam Meisters")

So, in sum, as far as attitudes towards terrorism is concerned:

• Gundam W pilots: Either "we're not terrorists" and/or "so what if we're doing these things"
• Celestial Being operators / Gundam Meisters: "we're not terrorists" BUT "we may not be doing the right things"

While the members of Celestial Being may still need to be clued in to the definition of terrorism, at least they are clued into the uncertainty of attempting to stop violence with the threat of violence. While the cannon fodders in both Gundam W and Gundam 00 all scream "it's GUNDAM!!" before being blown to smithereens, only the ones in Gundam 00 die in the hands of Those Who Care[TM], at least every Celetial Being member except Setuna. I don't think Setuna could ever give a crap after what happend to him, but it's probably too early to tell.

...This is not to mention the head of Celestial Being. If that guy's face doesn't spell "EVIL" in upper case letters then nothing else does. Then again, looks can be deceiving.

(It is also important to note the "Peacemaker-style" mobile-suit destruction that went on in the first episode)

Web References:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism
http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terrorism
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/terrorist?view=uk

My first question is that I don't understand what the problem is if they fit the definition of terrorists. So they're a politically motivated group using violence, as opposed to a state taking action against another state. What's the problem? In both W and 00 (as far as I can remember), these actions were taken against corrupt establishments and against military targets.

I don't see how the W guys can be terrorists, since they weren't attacking civilians. They were simply engaging in not-so-secret guerrilla warfare with OZ and Romafeller.

00 looks nice; wonder how long it'll take to be dubbed and released here.

While I'm not necessarily qualified to fully comment on the matter, I ask this:

So basically, the point your getting at is: since OUR world views terrorism in a very negative manner (and considering our world situation, there is nothing wrong with this, IMO), there is therefore something wrong with an anime, a work of fiction set in a world that is politically far different from ours, exploring the notion of terrorism in a more positive, or at least in a substantially less negative light?

blkmage wrote:My first question is that I don't understand what the problem is if they fit the definition of terrorists. So they're a politically motivated group using violence, as opposed to a state taking action against another state. What's the problem? In both W and 00 (as far as I can remember), these actions were taken against corrupt establishments and against military targets.

There's only a "problem" (for one that cares, anyhow), if someone denies the fact that they're terrorists

If we think that their brand is terrorism is cool then of course there's no "problem".

It is still in question whether Celestial Being is itself "corrupt". In the first episode everything was honky-dory that's true. However, in the second there was some doubts at least in my mind especially highlighted by the remarks of the leader of the American continents. Even if there is no motive of "gain" of any kind, it still calls into question of the timing (note the remark "it's been 10 years since the construction, the economy is finally stabilizing and now THIS")

If even some of the Celestial Being crew have doubts, then it shouldn't surprise anyone that the audience is somewhat expected to have doubts also.

Godly Paladin wrote:I don't see how the W guys can be terrorists, since they weren't attacking civilians. They were simply engaging in not-so-secret guerrilla warfare with OZ and Romafeller.

00 looks nice; wonder how long it'll take to be dubbed and released here.

The Gundam W guys were also (quoting dictionary definition, included in one of my above links) "person(s) who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims."

The definition of terrorism does not differentiate between military and civilian targets. There are plenty of "military targets" like check-points around Gaza and the West Bank in Israel for example.

Debitt wrote:While I'm not necessarily qualified to fully comment on the matter, I ask this:

So basically, the point your getting at is: since OUR world views terrorism in a very negative manner (and considering our world situation, there is nothing wrong with this, IMO), there is therefore something wrong with an anime, a work of fiction set in a world that is politically far different from ours, exploring the notion of terrorism in a more positive, or at least in a substantially less negative light?

The simple point is that of "those pilots are terrorists".

The point is not that "there is something wrong with those pilots being terrorists" or "there isn't anything wrong with those pilots being terrorists" or "there's something wrong with an anime that talks about terrorism" or "there's something wrong with an anime that talks about terrorism in a positive way".

...Because it is questionable even if it's portrayed in a positive light in the series. Some people may "like it" or not, it's up to individual subjective reaction. It is not questionable, however, that those pilots belong in a terrorist organization because the fact of their actions (and the broadcast) speak for themselves.

I know the series is deliberately holding back on whether or not the whole "mission" is positive or negative in whichever ways. It might even hold back until the last episode if we're lucky.

There actually was a war going on between Earth and the Plants in
Gundam Wing so I doubt that the Gundam W pilots could properly be called terrorist in that regard.Also in Endless Waltz the action that they
take is in response to what one could call an actual terrorist action(the
kidnapping and holding of Relena as a hostage).
On the other hand one man's terrorist can be considered another man's freedom fighter(at least in fiction).For example on Blakes7 the crew of
the Liberator are considered terrorists by the Federation.

mitsuki lover wrote:There actually was a war going on between Earth and the Plants in
Gundam Wing so I doubt that the Gundam W pilots could properly be called terrorist in that regard.Also in Endless Waltz the action that they
take is in response to what one could call an actual terrorist action(the
kidnapping and holding of Relena as a hostage).
On the other hand one man's terrorist can be considered another man's freedom fighter(at least in fiction).For example on Blakes7 the crew of
the Liberator are considered terrorists by the Federation.

There was no war between Earth proper and Plant, however there was a plan of "revenge killing" against the OZ military drawn by the disaffected former OZ scientists. If the object was that of revenge and not of terror (i.e. "I don't care if you're scared because I just want you dead"), then I think you do have a point in the case of Gundam Wing.

That aside, terrorists can commit terrorism in response to terrorism. Also, terrorists do not have to be commiting terrorist acts 100% of their time (i.e "being terrorists") in order to be regarded as terrorists.

As you have indicated the definition can take a subjective flavor. One person's "shock n' awe" is another's "terror".

nanikore wrote:"person(s) who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims."

By that definition the United States government are terrorists, since they constantly tell Iran "If you don't shape up we'll use military action against you."

Either you believe the US is run by terrorists, or your definition of terrorism needs to be a bit more precise.

Obviously, in today's context, terrorism is much more specific than your definition. And if there was no problem, there'd be no debate. However, I think that you're trying to use your broad definition of terrorism and apply it with the same connotations that today's terrorism brings with it.

nanikore wrote:The simple point is that of "those pilots are terrorists".

[...]

I know the series is deliberately holding back on whether or not the whole "mission" is positive or negative in whichever ways. It might even hold back until the last episode if we're lucky.

Understood, and I see your point now. However, I will point out that the tone your original post takes seems to try to drive the issue in the direction of 'yes, these people are terrorists and what they're doing is essentially misguided', and IMO if you want to gauge other's opinions on the basic issue of 'ARE their actions for good or ill?' then you might want to pose that question outright, instead of asking 'are the main characters terrorists?' and then proceeding to answer yourself via slapping a definition around. Doing the latter seemed to muddy what you really wanted to ask. Either that, or sleep deprivation is robbing me entirely of my reading comprehension skills.

blkmage wrote:Obviously, in today's context, terrorism is much more specific than your definition. And if there was no problem, there'd be no debate. However, I think that you're trying to use your broad definition of terrorism and apply it with the same connotations that today's terrorism brings with it.

No. I am not speaking of connotations but definitions, and I have been speaking of definitions from the get-go.

For those who wants a more precise definition, here is one from the American Heritage Dictionary (curtesy of someone else I've been discussing this with):

Terrorism:
n. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

By "unlawful" here I presume the reference is made to national/international laws and agreements.

Debitt wrote:IMO if you want to gauge other's opinions on the basic issue of 'ARE their actions for good or ill?' then you might want to pose that question outright, instead of asking 'are the main characters terrorists?' and then proceeding to answer yourself via slapping a definition around. Doing the latter seemed to muddy what you really wanted to ask. Either that, or sleep deprivation is robbing me entirely of my reading comprehension skills.

The purpose of the post is is gauging the reactions (if any) to the fact that Celestial Being is a terrorist organization. There is really little to no way to tell at this point whether the terrorist acts are "correct" or not. I myself couldn't react to their supposed right or wrong-doings because I don't know what they're doing is right or not (interestingly, that is the same question facing some members of Celestial Being; Perhaps the series is designed this way)

My reaction to the fact of "Celestial Being is a terrorist organization" would be "these are terrorists that have a sense of remorse which distinguishes them".

...So actually, the crux of the issue would be whether those people have remorse, and not whether they are doing the right things or even whether they're terrorists.

Some may like to repeat the cliché of "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" but I would very much beg to differ on that. One must start with good intent, lest he or she becomes morally bankrupt.

Here, I would like to introduce another definition:

machiavellian
adj.
being or acting in accordance with the principles of government analyzed in Machiavelli's The Prince, in which political expediency is placed above morality and the use of craft and deceit to maintain the authority and carry out the policies of a ruler is described.

The definition would raise the question of whether the leader of Celestial Being acted in a machiavellian manner. There is no way to know at this point since we have seen only a small portion of the organization's activities. This means that while it is evident that certain members of Celestial Being do hold themselves morally accountable, it remains to be seen whether the same extends to the leader of the organization.