CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

I have found that excluding Ichigo himself that Zaracki kempatchi is the only one worthy of the name toughest shinigami because he doesn't use a Bankai or shikai and he still defeats two shinigami using Bankais

What kind of criteria are we using to decide who's toughest? In terms of raw reiatsu, both Commander General Yamamoto and Aizen have been declared to have at least twice standard Captain-level, so that puts them on a very high tier. Both are presumably extremely skilled, but Aizen seems to indicate he has reached very high levels in all four arts, whereas we don't know how broad Yamamoto's skillbase is.

All of us know, of course, that Ichigo will eventually become strongest. Protagonists tend to do that. And I agree that Zaraki would become a monster if he attained Bankai (or even Shikai, which I suspect might happen).

However, if the question is who would win in a fight, that's a lot more complex and there probably isn't a single toughest character. For example, Mayuri has an extremely cheap ability. If he had been fighting almost anyone but Ishida he would have won easily.

verry true i hadn't thought about reiatsu. i was mostly thinking about who could take the most beating and still come back.

uc pseudonym wrote:However, if the question is who would win in a fight, that's a lot more complex and there probably isn't a single toughest character. For example, Mayuri has an extremely cheap ability. If he had been fighting almost anyone but Ishida he would have won easily.

Nah, I think Kubo could write up a way to beat him

seventh circle wrote:i was mostly thinking about who could take the most beating and still come back.

I think I'll go with Zaraki, then. Not only is he extremely determined, but he seems to be tough beyond the levels of physical possibility. For example, I bet even if had been cut the way Ichigo was at the end of the Soul Society arc, he would have kept moving somehow.

samuraidragon wrote:Nah, I think Kubo could write up a way to beat him

Certainly. Ishida's was an example, they made up another one for the filler, and I can think of a variety of other counters. But you have to admit that paralysis and poison are both very cheap, especially if he employed them more secretly.

uc pseudonym wrote:I think I'll go with Zaraki, then. Not only is he extremely determined, but he seems to be tough beyond the levels of physical possibility. For example, I bet even if had been cut the way Ichigo was at the end of the Soul Society arc, he would have kept moving somehow.

Like someone said, he really is a monster. I thought he might have gained shikai after his battle with Ichigo, but that really has no basis.

uc pseudonym wrote:Certainly. Ishida's was an example, they made up another one for the filler, and I can think of a variety of other counters. But you have to admit that paralysis and poison are both very cheap, especially if he employed them more secretly.

I just have to ask, are you as exited as I am that the fillers are ending in two episodes? The fillers drove me nuts, I didn't like the way they were written or anything, though I admit it got a lot better after the bount were introduced. That episode where they were caught in the musem or wherever almost made me give up Bleach.

ok now im realy only up through episode 63 myself. which episodes do you count as the fillers and should be avoided?

seventh circle wrote:ok now im realy only up through episode 63 myself. which episodes do you count as the fillers and should be avoided?

Anything after 63 really. You could watch 64, but it's the beginning of the fillers. 110 is the end of the fillers, and the current episode is 108.

samuraidragon wrote:I just have to ask, are you as exited as I am that the fillers are ending in two episodes? The fillers drove me nuts, I didn't like the way they were written or anything, though I admit it got a lot better after the bount were introduced. That episode where they were caught in the musem or wherever almost made me give up Bleach.

I'm more interested in the manga so it isn't that big of a deal to me, but I am glad the fillers are ending. Overall I'm disappointed by how they were done. It covers far too much of the same ground as the Soul Society arc. Also, I really expected the invented Mod-soul characters to die off before the arc ended. I guess they'll just be condemned to randomness episodes along with the rest of the minor characters.

seventh circle wrote:ok now im realy only up through episode 63 myself. which episodes do you count as the fillers and should be avoided?

Oh, I didn't realize that. A few episodes earlier and I might have spoiled the biggest plot twist in the series for you. Episode 63 is the last non-filler one, and the manga plot isn't going to begin again until 110, which hasn't aired yet. The filler is much better than some (Naruto comes to mind) but is a far cry from Kubo Tite's writing.

i'm thinking more of the manga because i haven't seen as much of the anime as i have read of the manga. aizen, ichimaru gin, kempatchi, and hitsugaya are my tops. however, i haven't seen aizen or ichimaru gin at full strength yet so i don't know...

oh ok thanks. about wich episode do the fillers get interesting?

Well, never really. You could pick up the last few, like around 100. But then it wouldn't make any sense, because it's been building from the start.

samuraidragon wrote:Well, never really. You could pick up the last few, like around 100. But then it wouldn't make any sense, because it's been building from the start.

gosh. the bleach anime's turning into the naruto anime. too many filler episodes and extremely overrated...

Bleach episodes 1-62 are cool. the author just had an 40 episode brain fart.

Well the manga and anime resolved the Soul Society ark at the same time, therefore not leaving anything for the anime. One anime episode is a few chapters of manga, so they needed some time to have something to animate.

samuraidragon wrote:Well the manga and anime resolved the Soul Society ark at the same time, therefore not leaving anything for the anime. One anime episode is a few chapters of manga, so they needed some time to have something to animate.

they should've waited longer before releasing the anime series. and also, they could've just ended the anime after the soul society arc concluded. they would've had to change some things but still...

it was left with too much of a lose thread to end.

In defense of the Bleach fillers: they aren't as good as the manga, but at least they created one cohesive plot arc instead of pointless one or two shot episodes. Basically they say that Aizen can't use the Hogyoku for a while, and while he is waiting another group of villains shows up and handling them takes up about 40 episodes. Wait... is the filler actually longer than the Soul Society arc?

seventh circle wrote:oh ok thanks. about wich episode do the fillers get interesting?

At the very least skip five episodes or so. The filler enemies aren't really introduced until around 68-70 (can't quite remember) and before that the plot is pretty pointless. You wouldn't miss much. Other than the occasional interesting episode, the filler was pretty bland until 95+, where characters start dying instead of being involved in fights that accomplish nothing.

Overall, my biggest problem with the fillers is that they have too much running around and information gathering. That's fine (though it is shonen) but for that to work it needs to be fairly intelligent, whereas this feels fairly pointless.

samuraidragon wrote:Well the manga and anime resolved the Soul Society ark at the same time, therefore not leaving anything for the anime. One anime episode is a few chapters of manga, so they needed some time to have something to animate.

This is sadly the truth of Japanese television. I think it would be best if they let series rest for a year in order to allow the manga to move on, but fillers are likely to continue.

thanks. i'll look into it.

Pffffft Obvious Uruyu! She has like... mega-bazookas or something.

In all seriousness, I would expect Aizen, Ichigo, Kenpachi, and Yamamoto to be the toughest.

yeah. i forgot that ichigo's a shinigami. i was only thinking of the captains in the soul society. what about rukia? she's not a captain but when she comes back after the soul society arc, she's STRONG!! also, that one really old guy (i forgot his name). he was strong enough to fight two captains at the same time.

Bah. I still insist that Rukia was poorly retconned to be somewhat strong, and hence I will assume her to be as weak as possible until proven otherwise. Currently she's proven herself to be around Vice Captain level.

As for the old guy, you're referring to Yamamoto. It's clear that most of the thread agrees with you, given how many people have listed him.

uc pseudonym wrote:Bah. I still insist that Rukia was poorly retconned to be somewhat strong, and hence I will assume her to be as weak as possible until proven otherwise. Currently she's proven herself to be around Vice Captain level.

yeah. the manga is definitely inconsistant in making rukia so strong after the soul society. especially when, in the first chapter, she gets injured so easily by a weak hollow.

uc pseudonym wrote:As for the old guy, you're referring to Yamamoto. It's clear that most of the thread agrees with you, given how many people have listed him.

yamamoto. okay. i can't really keep track of all the characters' names as i haven't read much of the manga lately and there are a LOT of characters...

Mr. SmartyPants wrote:Pffffft Obvious Uruyu! She has like... mega-bazookas or something.

In all seriousness, I would expect Aizen, Ichigo, Kenpachi, and Yamamoto to be the toughest.

sure Yamamoto looks tough but unless i missed something in the fillers we never actualy see him fight.

His reitsu immobilized a vice-captain. I think that's proof enough. Not to mention he easily out ran Ukitake and Kyōraku.

seventh circle wrote:sure Yamamoto looks tough but unless i missed something in the fillers we never actualy see him fight.

i don't know about the anime but in the manga he fights once and it's against two captains. i don't even think that he was using all of his power in that fight.

samurai: Just cause he can imobilize a vice captain and out run those two doesn't mean he's all that powerfull. And that vice captain we have no clue how strong she is. All we ever see her do is get stuff and keep track of stuff for Ukitake? Kyōraku? one of those two i can't remember which.

[quote="seventh circle"]samurai: Just cause he can imobilize a vice captain and out run those two doesn't mean he's all that powerfull. And that vice captain we have no clue how strong she is. All we ever see her do is get stuff and keep track of stuff for Ukitake? Kyō]

we haven't even seen his full strength yet. for all we know, he could be as strong as aizen...

[quote="seventh circle"]samurai: Just cause he can imobilize a vice captain and out run those two doesn't mean he's all that powerfull. And that vice captain we have no clue how strong she is. All we ever see her do is get stuff and keep track of stuff for Ukitake? Kyō]
Reiatsu is a good measure of one's strength. Think about it. He isn't 1st Division Captain for no reason now is he?

About Yamamoto's strength: it seems to me that though Nanao likely isn't very strong, she would be a decent judge of reiatsu levels. She says that even with two Captains vs Yamamoto she's not sure they could win, and though I think she's slightly overestimating him due to the fact that he almost wiped her out with aura alone, it seems obvious to me that he's at about the two of them put together.

As we've seen, reiatsu translates directly to strength and often to speed. Given how old Yamamoto is (and the fact that he trained basically all the other Captains) we can also assume that he is highly skilled at least in swordplay and movement. All Captains have Bankai and his sword has already been declared to have the highest offensive power, so we know he's dangerous on that account.

Overall, I think it's pretty clear that he's one of the top shinigami in Bleach. However, I hesitate to compare him to Aizen because we've never seen either of them go all out. But Aizen has proven that he has high levels of kidou and other arts that Yamamoto hasn't, so we don't know if this versitality would make a different.