CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

It never fails... you finally find a show that is amazingly good, relatively clean, and overall awesome.
You fall in love with it, the characters, the plotlines, the moments of true greatness, and so you begin to collect it.
Fansubbers are suddenly your unsung heroes, and you appreciate every word they translate. You collect as much of the show as possible, by whatever means you can, rope your friends and family into watching it with you, only for them to be engrossed as well, and suddenly, it means something to you.
BAM. Some stupid american company snatches up the rights to it, and you hope they don't mess up your baby. You watch and wait for it to premiere on television, only to find... all the cultural references dumbed down, the concepts removed, the names changed, and sporting worthless voice acting and pathetic music.
It's sad, and it happens all too often.
Some might call it over-hyped, but I love Naruto. What can I say? It's a great, great, great show....
And it premieres on Toonami this Saturday, much to my charign.
I'm not trying to be eletist, here, but I am a purist about such things, especially shows like One Piece, Kenshin, and even the original Macross, which were mauled beyond recognition by my fellow countrymen in the name of marketability.
I mean, seriously, "Samurai X"? ...Shoot me...
Melodrama aside, if you've seen Naruto, and experienced yourself rising to your feet in joy over Rock Lee, or Kakashi doing their thing, or felt a tear well up in your eye when Kenshin leaving for Kyoto meant something, perhaps you understand what I'm saying here.
In the grand view of eternity, none of these shows matter, I know, but it still amazes me how God has imbued us with the ability to create such experiences with which we find ourselves holding an affinity.
Perhaps I'm just voicing my frustration over something temporal, that doesn't really matter in the end.
Perhaps I just remember the good ol' days when Japanese animation was underground, and I was "in the know".
Perhaps I'd rather have people come to view great shows in their original form, so as not to spoil the experience.
Perhaps I'm looking into this too deeply.
Perhaps Cartoon Network won't mess Naruto up too badly.
Perhaps a rhinocerous will fly out of my butt...

Well the commercials for it make it seem like some battle royal for control of a school. -_-

Nu-En-Jin wrote:Perhaps a rhinocerous will fly out of my butt...

Perhaps you need to stock up on Preparation H or something, 'cause that doesn't sound healthy.

(Though I do actually have the old Kenshin fansubs (up through ep.80) from before it was licensed and slaughtered.)

We'll have to see about Naruto. I'm sure it is possible for them to ruin the anime, but in all honesty I have to admit it wasn't that great. I liked it because I enjoy the manga, but it suffered from slow development, poorly done action and obnoxious flow.

The translation of the manga frustrated me at the beginning, until I realized that the original Naruto had a lot of cheesy elements as well. But because some words were still in Japanese and I don't know the language, I didn't recognize the cheesiness. So they were remaining true to the work... though I don't want them to.

Excepting some terrible dubs, I think that by large dubbing isn't such a bad thing. Many subs seem to translate literally, which leads to sluggish and poor dialogue (it works in Japanese, but not English). The dubs I have watched sounded much more intelligent, but few of those were mainstream anime (which are the ones most likely to be edited beyond recognition).

Fansubbers are suddenly your unsung heroes, and you appreciate every word they translate. You collect as much of the show as possible, by whatever means you can, rope your friends and family into watching it with you, only for them to be engrossed as well, and suddenly, it means something to you.
BAM. Some stupid american company snatches up the rights to it, and you hope they don't mess up your baby

I totally feel your pain Nu-En-Jin-Sama. I am so x_x Just. Afraid of how bad they are going to mess it up. I have seen the butchering of wonderful shows like Kenshin, YuuYuu Hakusho [ Which they never aired the last season e_e .... ] and such. I don't mean to be elitist, or bash dubbing, because some shows have been dubbed wonderfully, like KyouKaraMaoh! , X , Samurai 7 ... but if you notice, these are not shown on Cartoon Network. I wish that AdultSwim had gotten Naruto because then they won't butcher the fight scenes.

-Kami

Nu-En-Jin wrote:Perhaps a rhinocerous will fly out of my butt...

thats more likely then them not screwing up naruto.
I've never seen the anime but I have the manga and thats good at least lol

If it's so bad, at least you can turn off the TV. BUT PLEASE DON'T SCREW IT UP!

(BTW, cool avatar Nu- En- Jin.)

Ah another show potentially dies at the hand of CN....
so many have been lost due to this channel and bad US dubbers....
Hopefully it won't, but just in case, RIP....
lol

So sad. I like Naruto too.

Man, Nu, I totally feel your pain. Samurai X made me cry when I heard that. Not really, but almost.

Also, I am unashamedly elitist about Rurouni Kenshin being put on Cartoon Network. BAD. BAD. BAD. I'm not so awesome anymore for owning Rurouni Kenshin on DVD because everyone has already seen it five times on Cartoon Network. >_>

Kkun wrote:Man, Nu, I totally feel your pain. Samurai X made me cry when I heard that. Not really, but almost.

Also, I am unashamedly elitist about Rurouni Kenshin being put on Cartoon Network. BAD. BAD. BAD. I'm not so awesome anymore for owning Rurouni Kenshin on DVD because everyone has already seen it five times on Cartoon Network. >_>

I guess for me, the point was never to be awesome, but to share the awesomeness of the experience of the show with others. Watching Kenshin fansubbed all those years ago became an almost nightly gathering with friends, and we all shared the "whoa!", "no way!", and "sniff... sob" moments together.
With anime so much in the mainstream anymore, it's not like you can find the awesomeness until it's practically spoiled. Case in point- if I were to get together with friends to watch Naruto now, I'd feel compelled to do so right this very second, before the possibility for pollution could taint the experience for others.
Funny how us old fogies used to want to constantly advance the anime culture, only to have our wish granted, but not to our satisfaction.
Have cake. Eat also.
Hmmm...

people are still fansubbing naruto....... you can still download them....

yeah I honestly feel that Naruto has gone downhill a bit... but it seems that it could go back uphill

It's gonna be funny yet annoying, while most people will be going "OH MY GOSH NARUTO BEAT UP HAKU!!!!!" We'll be all "Oh my gosh Naruto became Hokage..." And they'll go "whats a Hoe-kidge? You mean the Head Ninja?"

Mr. SmartyPants wrote:people are still fansubbing naruto....... you can still download them....

yeah I honestly feel that Naruto has gone downhill a bit... but it seems that it could go back uphill

It's gonna be funny yet annoying, while most people will be going "OH MY GOSH NARUTO BEAT UP HAKU!!!!!" We'll be all "Oh my gosh Naruto became Hokage..." And they'll go "whats a Hoe-kidge? You mean the Head Ninja?"

Yeah, like when I mention "Hitokiri Battousai" or the "Shinsen Gumi" and people say "you mean the Manslay*.... GAAAA!!!" as I quickly silence them with my pop-tart of DOOM....

Nu-En-Jin wrote::lol:
Yeah, like when I mention "Hitokiri Battousai" or the "Shinsen Gumi" and people say "you mean the Manslay*.... GAAAA!!!" as I quickly silence them with my pop-tart of DOOM....

yeah i do find it annoying too

Ya'll don't have to bury Naruto yet... *is trying to be optimistic*

Mr. SmartyPants wrote:yeah i do find it annoying too

I know what you mean too. heh. I've done that with other series too.

I forced my cousins to watch my Groove Adventure Rave fansubs. Then they tried to watch Rave Master on CN and they couldn't take it. well all but the oldest one who is like "the AMERICAN version is better." But at least I got the younger 2 to understand.

I've always found the fansubs I've seen to be of lackluster quality. Not to say that there aren't any bad American releases, but at least the American releases have the canonicity implicit in a commercial release.

I like watching things in English better, and since I see the English first when I can help it, I judge fansubs and official subs unfavorably in comparison. Pretty much the reverse of what you do--see the fansubbed first and judge the English dub unfavorably thereafter.

A noticeable case in point is that I saw the official sub of ROD The TV eps. 1-4 at an anime convention last fall. I went and bought the next three volumes of the series in the months following, and I've consistently found that I like the English better than the Japanese. Even though the "Nenene-neesan" joke in the 2nd or 3rd ep was lost in translation--and it was an interesting piece of linguistic humor (rather like Kei of Dirty Pair Flash saying once to a crossdresser who mistook her for a crossdresser too, "Ore wa onna da"--I (masculine) am a woman), those things just don't carry a series.

I have to say I prefer subtitled. Preferable I'd like the official one. I have trouble with the dubs. I like to listen to the original laungague. I especially hate when charachters name are changed. And most Dubbs are excruciatingly painful for me to listen to. But thats my opinion.

I agree that I prefer characters' names to stay the same--Shinichi Kuno sounds a lot more Japanese than Jimmy Kuno, for example--but that's about it. My main point was that no matter whether you prefer subs or dubs, you are likely to be biased in favor of the version (subbed or dubbed) that you saw a significant portion of the show in first. (Exceptions do exist: my own ROD The TV example is a case in point.)

The Grammarian wrote:I agree that I prefer characters' names to stay the same--Shinichi Kuno sounds a lot more Japanese than Jimmy Kuno, for example--but that's about it. My main point was that no matter whether you prefer subs or dubs, you are likely to be biased in favor of the version (subbed or dubbed) that you saw a significant portion of the show in first. (Exceptions do exist: my own ROD The TV example is a case in point.)

No for me I like the subtitled better no matter which I saw first. It's easier for to watch the dub if I've seen it first. However I still think the dub is terrible and I prefer the subtitle because its the original. I'm a subtitle elitest. I'm sorry. I saw the Escaflowne Dubb first. I had never seen subtitled before that. Then i saw the Subtitled. Since then I think all dubbs are inferior. Wheater or not I see them first or second.

The Grammarian wrote:Not to say that there aren't any bad American releases, but at least the American releases have the canonicity implicit in a commercial release.

I'd say that's untrue for many English dubs. For example, in Sailor Moon, it was quite obvious that the other Senshi died in the final battle with Beryl at the end of the first season. The English dub breaks canonicity to make it more "kid-friendly" by not having them die. Robotech was the same way, as much as I love it.

I don't know what dubs you've been watching, because most of the English dubs I've seen change things to make them more palatable to English audiences.

My main point was that no matter whether you prefer subs or dubs, you are likely to be biased in favor of the version (subbed or dubbed) that you saw a significant portion of the show in first.

Actually, that's untrue of me. Sometimes I will watch a series dubbed first, and often end up disappointed with the quality of the English voices. Case in point: Sailor Moon again. The English dub is horribly atrocious, but it was all I had seen for...77 episodes of the series. It was only after I had seen all the English episodes available that I got my hands on Sailor Moon S fansubbed, and although I knew the dub was horrible before, watching it in the original language made me realize just how horrible it was.

I admit, I owe a lot to the English dubbed version, I'm not denying that. It's what got me into anime. But it's a horrible piece of trash compared to the original.

The same also holds true of the English dub of Cardcaptor Sakura, which was HORRIBLY butchered beyond belief in English, cutting out the first seven episodes of the series entirely. The English dub of Saint Tail is also very poor, and I hear it cut out references to God and such...odd since the main character goes to a Catholic school...hence much of my dislike of dubs.

I also admit that as a non-native Japanese speaker, I would have no clue what bad voice acting would sound like in Japanese. However, that may be a blessing, because I certainly know what bad voice acting sounds like in English, another reason for my distaste for dubs. Say what you will about the high-pitched voices of the Japanese voice actresses, but at least they sound like little kids. Compare this to English voices, where it is quite obvious that they are grown women trying to sound like little girls, and it's painful to listen to.

I'm not trying to change your mind, by the way, watch anime in whatever language you prefer. ^^ Just giving you a bit of insight into why some people like subs better than dubs, and that it has nothing to do with the language we first watched it in.

I think it be best to wait and see what Naruto is like on Saturday then to go and
complain about it right away.As far as it goes not all NA dubs are done in the
U.S. there are a lot that are done up in Canada as well.For example VIZ
is connected to the Ocean Group that has studios up in Vancouver,BC which is
where they do Inuyasha.Also Banner of the Stars was dubbed in Calgary while
Crest was done in Vancouver.I believe Betterman was also dubbed in Calgary.
So if you don't like the NA dub don't automatically ASSUME that it was done in
the States.It might have actually have been done in Canada instead.
That said I would really hate to say this but this is looking like one of those
anti-dub threads that I as a dubber dread because of the fact that it ignores the
fact that neither dubs or subs are really as good as they could be.Both could and
can possibly be better,neither is really superior or inferior to the other.There are
pros and cons to watching each.
Oh and I don't think we can place all the blame for "butchering"some anime on
the network that airs it.You have to remember that the company that produces
the shows for airing in North America have also some responsibility for what
shows up on tv.For example I believe that the entire Sailor Moon thing was as
much the result of the way the company that had the rights to produce it
did with it as anything that CN had to do.
Oh and finally this might make you all happy.According to the Anime News Network
AS is supposed to air a sub anime some time in the next season.

I'm not so awesome anymore for owning Rurouni Kenshin on DVD because everyone has already seen it five times on Cartoon Network. >_>

Oh, that's not true. You're letting me borrow it! That makes you quite awesome!

I'm very, very apprhensive about them translating/dubbing Full Moon or KKJ. The subs were so great, and especially with Full Moon I don't want to hear some awful pop princess butchering Mitsuki.

kaemmerite wrote:I don't know what dubs you've been watching, because most of the English dubs I've seen change things to make them more palatable to English audiences.


Actually, that's untrue of me. Sometimes I will watch a series dubbed first, and often end up disappointed with the quality of the English voices. Case in point: Sailor Moon again. The English dub is horribly atrocious, but it was all I had seen for...77 episodes of the series. It was only after I had seen all the English episodes available that I got my hands on Sailor Moon S fansubbed, and although I knew the dub was horrible before, watching it in the original language made me realize just how horrible it was.
.

I agree with what you said entirely. I've noticed big differences from deubbed to subbed as well. For instance Voices from a distant star. My moms eyes are bad. So my friend and I watched it with her Dubbed. the next day we watched the subtitled and discovered that there were things in the subtitled verion that were left out of the Dub which made the story make more sense whien included.

Also I agree that English Dub voice acting can be horrific. The Sailor moon one being absoluetly terrible.

It all depends on what is there. Dub fans will have to get used to it... because the distributors have said straight out that they prefer entertainment to accuracy, while subs have to be somewhat accurate because someone knowing some Japanese can detect a gross mistranslation and raise a fuss.

fansubs are not the paragons of virtue either. Most of the ones I have seen just throw in gratuitous profanity. Nyamo using the F-word to Yukari for example in Azumanga Daioh fansubs etc. Keep in mind that the fansubbers do not necessarily do things accurately just because they do it for free

That is true.

you notice that fansubs have the translators notes when explaining about cultural references and stuff...

also notice that they change food stuff... in Azumanga Daioh (well the manga atleast) they refer a certain food that Osaka eats "meatballs" while in the fansub they refer them to what they are called in Japan. And then on top of the screen explain what it is

I hate reading subtitles, but I dislike a lot of dubs... Lucky me, Cowboy Bebop has a really good dub, so I don't really care about the original Japanese. And um, Cartoonnetwork isn't the one dubbing the animes... If you read the credits, it usually says who did it. But they do cut things out. When I watched Rurouni Kenshin, Jin'e's death amde no sense. Kenshin picked up him sword then the guy just fell over. :\ Then I got the DVD. Oh and I hate what they do to cigarettes... like they're evil or something... Sanji walking around with a lolipop?:eh: That's just stupid.

I think, to a certain degree, it isn't valid to compare Japanese and English voice acting if you don't know Japanese. In some ways it is about as bad as someone saying, "I hate subbed, because all the characters are gibbering nonsense."

Nu-En-Jin wrote::lol:
Yeah, like when I mention "Hitokiri Battousai" or the "Shinsen Gumi" and people say "you mean the Manslay*.... GAAAA!!!" as I quickly silence them with my pop-tart of DOOM....

Yes, I hate it when people translate things into English. For example, I grate my teeth every time a subtitle appears on screen. I mean, they just turned a perfectly good Japanese line into an English one! Why would you do that? It isn't as if "translation" is important.

As I've said before, subtitles pervert the very essence of anime. The medium is meant to be seen and heard not read. Yes, if a series is edited beyond recognition that isn't good, but if otherwise equal the dub is actually closer (for those who only understand English) to what the creator wanted.

Well I'm used to watching subtitled films. My mom used to get them for my sister and I to watch with her when i was a kid. Though they were usually french. When I first started watching anime subbed I didn't know Japanese. But I think the emotion sounds better in the voices. Now I know some Japanese and I have to say I still think the Japanese sounds better. I have to say I did not agree that subtitles pervert the essance of anime because I think that certain voice actors are choisen for a reason. ANd that in changeing it from the original voice actor changes the feeling of the film. I think that the subtitled version is closer to the creaters intent then the dub because how something is said can effect how someone percieves it. Most Dubbs sound insincere and forced to me. Cowboy Bebop being the best I've heard still has slight differences in the acting.