Treatment of Women in Anime

[ABlipinTime]

Ok, so I haven't seen a thread on this recently, so let's start this.
Just fyi, this a thread for women specifically, but guys are allowed to pitch in. However, this isn't about what guys think that women think but what women think about how they are represented in anime.

I've run across quite a few anime that imo don't depict women respectably, that is, they are very dehumanizing. Spice and Wolf, for example (attributing animal-like characteristics to a human imo is dehumanizing, regardless of whether one sees it as offensive or not). Also, there seems to be a trend running through various other (again, not all) anime. Note, for example, Faye Valentine's clothing in Cowboy Bebop.

I'm just wondering how you girls out there see it. Do you overlook it? Do you move on to something else? What's your thoughts? How influential is it in your decision to watch/continue to watch an anime? etc.

[minakichan]

Spice and Wolf?! Really?! It's an animal who turns into a human, not the other way around, and Horo is strong, confident, and possibly the most intelligent. Also, her standing is as a character who is HIGHER than humans, not lower, since she's all wolfy god-y one-with-nature. If anything, I think she's a feminist character...

But anyway, eh, I don't equate "wearing skimpy clothes" to "dehumanizing." That's really extreme; it's not like girls are being oppressed when they wear bathing suits to the beach, for example. As a girl, sometimes I LIKE looking at cute girls in cute clothes, too. Dehumanizing is a pretty strong word anyway; even harem shows don't treat girls like pieces of meat.

"Sexualize" and "objectify" are better words here.

Anyway, if it's a matter of just the way the characters are dressed, I don't particularly think women so bad; have you SEEN how flat and objectified (and disgustingly sexy and shirtless) men are in BL manga? The only reason there are more sexualized female characters is because there's a lot more anime for boys than for girls...

I will say that yeah, harem anime and stuff are pretty gross for the objectification, but it doesn't bother me because those series kind of suck anyway so I wouldn't pick them up in the first place =/ If it's something else, like an action anime, I don't think they're particularly worse than Hollywood movies.

[Nate]

My first thoughts were the same as Mina's. Spice and Wolf? What? She's not an animal-like human, she's an actual animal who is taking human form, and isn't paraded as a sex object (she doesn't particularly care for clothes, but she's an animal, so that makes sense, as animals don't normally wear clothes).

Other than that, I actually think that women are depicted better in anime than they are in most other mediums. Anime quite often depicts women as capable and intelligent in shows targeted for young girls, stuff like Pretty Cure and Sailor Moon, or even Fruits Basket where Tohru is shown as extremely kind and loving.

While there have been American cartoons that broke the mold, stuff like Princess Gwenevere and the Jewel Riders, or She-Ra, most shows targeted specifically at girls in the US tend to have most of the female characters be solely interested in boys or shopping or having tea parties, generic "girl stuff." As an aside, this is why My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic is such a fantastic show, as the main characters aren't all "girly-girl" types and have unique personalities.

Yes, there's going to be anime where the women are reduced to a convenient place to put boobs. This is true of any medium. Pornography, both hard and softcore exists, and so do magazines like Heavy Metal. I don't think that anime portrays women as sex objects any more than say, Hollywood movies or the like. In fact, if anything, I'd say manga and anime probably has more positive female characters than most American produced stuff.

[Atria35]

What Minka and Nate said. Holo is a strong, intelligent character, she's not human in the first place, and on a personal note, her nudity was never really sexual. It was more like looking at a classical painting- she never used it to entice, and was self-unaware.

Nate also has an excelent point on how anime/manga treat women on the whole- overall, it's far better than how American media tend to treat women. Do they have a tendency towards sexualization? Yes. But objectification? Let's face it- Faye Valantine might be sexualized, but she's a fully-realized character, with her own issues and baggage. She isn't any man's toy. I would rather watch an awesome character in skimpy clothing than I would a flat, cookie-cutter girl in a full-legnth dress.

In short- it isn't the clothes that make the character. Or the nekomimi.

Have I come across anime and manga that turn girls into walking boobs? Yes. There are gertain genres one can point at and know for certain that one would have to tread carefully or that would happen- Harems, as Minka pointed out. Again, I would argue that overall there are far more portrayals of that in American media.

EDIT: Also, if you want to talk about dehumanizing, watch DEARs. That was far more "dehumanizing" than putting cat ears on a character.

[Rusty Claymore]

Or the nekomimi.

ちがううううううううううううううううううううううううううううううう！！！！！！

[aliveinHim]

If anything's a bother, it's the whole fascination with breasts. In Bleach, Rangiku and Orehime are notorious for their breasts. In the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Haruhi grabs Mikuru by her breasts. I don't know how you all feel. It's a bit of a bother but somehow I can overlook it a tad bit.

[Yamamaya]

Simply being sexualized does not mean that the character is an affront to women. However, if that character is there for nothing but fanservice, then that would be objectifying women. Even if a female character is used for fanservice, if she has a unique personality that is not controlled by those objectifying traits, then I would not say that her mere existence is an affront to feminism.

Also, LOLWUT at Holo. Holo isn't even human. She's a goddess/wolf. Others have covered what I was about to say on this issue.

EDIT: Also, if you want to talk about dehumanizing, watch DEARs. That was far more "dehumanizing" than putting cat ears on a character.

I keep on hearing this anime brought up in many different circles. I've always heard about how bad it is and how dehumanizing it is. I feel like watching an episode just to see how bad it really is.

EDIT: The fascination with large breasts in anime is also cultural imo. Since Japanese women tend to have smaller breasts than women from other parts of the world, if it appears in anime it might be brought up or be used for fanservice.

[Atria35]

If anything's a bother, it's the whole fascination with breasts. In Bleach, Rangiku and Orehime are notorious for their breasts. In the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Haruhi grabs Mikuru by her breasts. I don't know how you all feel. It's a bit of a bother but somehow I can overlook it a tad bit.

As Yama pointed out, it's a bit of a cultural thing.

On my own behalf, being a *ahem* chesty gal myself, with friends that aren't so much, we joke around about it. Expecially when attempting to clothes shop, since I must tactfully find a way to explain why that cute shirt they picked up and insist I try on is not going to fit right. So I actually find the jokes amusing about half the time, since I realize that's how I look occasionally (I try not to), and that's how some guys see me.

[Yamamaya]

As Yama pointed out, it's a bit of a cultural thing.

On my own behalf, being a *ahem* chesty gal myself, with friends that aren't so much, we joke around about it. Expecially when attempting to clothes shop, since I must tactfully find a way to explain why that cute shirt they picked up and insist I try on is not going to fit right. So I actually find the jokes amusing about half the time, since I realize that's how I look occasionally (I try not to), and that's how some guys see me.

Chesty..I have never heard someone use that word before.

Girls joke about this kind of stuff, hence it makes sense that it would be a source of some conversation in anime.


Anyway, getting back on topic, I've found that certain genres tend to objectify women more than others, such as ecchi orientated series or harems.

Males are also subject to objectification. Just look at some of the bishies of anime.

[LadyRushia]

Spice and Wolf?! Really?! It's an animal who turns into a human, not the other way around, and Horo is strong, confident, and possibly the most intelligent. Also, her standing is as a character who is HIGHER than humans, not lower, since she's all wolfy god-y one-with-nature. If anything, I think she's a feminist character...

This.

Other than that, I actually think that women are depicted better in anime than they are in most other mediums. Anime quite often depicts women as capable and intelligent in shows targeted for young girls, stuff like Pretty Cure and Sailor Moon, or even Fruits Basket where Tohru is shown as extremely kind and loving.

And this.

The most annoyed I have ever been with anime/manga in terms of sexism is with popular shonen series like Naruto and Bleach. Although the sexualization is part of it, my issue is the fact that the girls are always less powerful/important to the story line and maybe once every 300 chapters the creators are like "OH LOOK HERE'S A PART ABOUT THIS FEMALE CHARACTER BEING REALLY STRONG AND STUFF" but after that it just goes back to status quo. I mean, take Sakura for example. Yeah, she's given perfect chakra control, super intelligence, and a feisty attitude, but the only ways her character develops are in regards to her crush on Sasuke. She has maybe three moments total where she seems to finally assert her independence and become a competent character, but then she's pushed to the side again as soon as that little part of the story is over. Sakura's just an example, but it's really the same with all the female characters in Naruto. They're created and they remain undeveloped, which is just bad writing. Bad writing usually goes hand-in-hand with the problems I see regarding the portrayal of women in anime/manga.

One time I explained all of this to someone and his response was "It's a shonen series. The girls aren't supposed to be the focus." This doesn't excuse bad writing, especially when there are other shonen series that have well-developed female characters (Soul Eater). If you're going to have a character in a story, he/she needs to be developed and important to the plot somehow.

[goldenspines]

Echoing Mina, Nate, and Atria's great responses in this thread, so I won't bore you with repeating them. ^_^

I'm just wondering how you girls out there see it. Do you overlook it? Do you move on to something else? What's your thoughts? How influential is it in your decision to watch/continue to watch an anime? etc.

It depends on the anime. It's mainly a certain group of genre that make a habit of "objectifying" females (or males in some cases). So, it's often fairly easy to avoid if you read a description of a show.
Yet, there are plenty of anime out there that don't view females as "objects" (as sometimes western society would in our media), but rather more as "humans", so to speak. Good examples, as Nate mentioned, are some magical girl anime like Pretty Cure, Sailor Moon, etc. that encourage females (and everyone else alike) to be themselves and not try to conform for anyone (aka: They don't have to dress a certain way to attract attention, they just need to be themselves).
I guess if you want a longer list of examples, I can PM you about it. Otherwise, I won't weigh down this post with a list. XD

Concerning the last question, I judge the anime I watch on several factors, but the treatment of females doesn't happen to be a major one (unless it's all fanservice, all the time). Usually, either the story is not interesting or something else about the anime doesn't catch my interest, so I drop it.


EDIT: Also echoing Rushair because she can post faster than me and I agree with her post.

[Jingo Jaden]

It's quite objective, but I for one am extremely happy that anime dares to be colorful in a dull and desaturated world. If I am watching a humor-based anime and it does portray a woman or women/ a man or men to be less than ideal, then that is just fine in my opinion as long as it makes me laugh.

Overall I really don't mind how women or men are portrayed in an anime. If it goes too far for my tastes then I will simply find another show, but I am not going to feel offended just because they make men chauvinistic or women overly-flirtatious because it is not portraying me, it is portraying an entirely different scenario and I never get offended at comments on so large, subjective mediums like gender. Most of the anime I've bothered to watch tend to mix stereotypes if anything, and that's fine as long as they do it the right way. I can see if it somehow offended me I'd not exactly like it, but at the same time I would not be watching it either.

And if by dehumanizing it includes anthro-like characteristics then I simply consider it a story medium. Can be horribly wrong or it can be done right. Again, depends on the example, but it is not an inherent negative as far as I see it.

[ShiroiHikari]

The objectification of women and lazy character development are the two biggest reasons why I don't like harem shows. That and typically they're just not funny to me.

Also jokes about boobies do get old after a while.

[Nate]

If anything's a bother, it's the whole fascination with breasts. In Bleach, Rangiku and Orehime are notorious for their breasts. In the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Haruhi grabs Mikuru by her breasts. I don't know how you all feel. It's a bit of a bother but somehow I can overlook it a tad bit.

Well, for one, there are actually girls in real life, that actually exist, that have large breasts. Simply having large breasts does not automatically make a character into fanservice. Although I stopped watching Bleach shortly after the Soul Society arc, I can't remember a single time that Rangiku was put into a skimpy outfit or her breasts were used in a fanservicey way. A couple of characters may have made comments about them (I don't recall), but overall I don't remember her breasts being a huge focus in the show.

As for the Haruhi thing, the same thing could have happened even with average or small breasts, in fact I've seen a couple of shows where a girl with a large chest will grab the breasts of someone who's small-chested and tease them about how they're growing nicely or something along those lines, so breast size really doesn't affect that one much as far as I'm concerned.

Now are there anime that use women with huge chests just to be fanservice? Yeah. But I think the mistake is thinking "large chest is always fanservice and degrading to women" because that absolutely is not the case, and could be very insulting and hurtful to real-life women with large chests.

[Mouse2010]

I'm just wondering how you girls out there see it. Do you overlook it? Do you move on to something else? What's your thoughts? How influential is it in your decision to watch/continue to watch an anime? etc.

What I care about most is whether characters are interesting, likeable, and well-developed. I care more about whether an anime has strong women characters who are capable of acting for themselves and who have their own goals and motives. Sometimes these women are scantily clad and big-breasted (example: the main character in WitchBlade), but I think their character counts for more than their outfits.

For instance, in Kaze no Stigma, I was annoyed by the occasional pantyshots, but what annoyed me even more was the way that, for much of the anime, Ayano was shown as almost useless in battle compared to Kazuma. It's not that I think all female characters have to be fighters (some of my favorite characters have not been good in combat; they showed strength of character in other ways). What I didn't like was that Ayano was supposed to be one of the strongest fire magic wielders in her family, yet she constantly appeared incompetent next to Kazuma. I wanted them to be more evenly matched.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I do sometimes get frustrated with the depiction of women in anime, but what frustrates me is when they are depicted as foolish, comical, or shallow next to the more competent male protagonists. But one of the things I like about anime is that that seems surprisingly rare*: there are lots of strong, capable female characters. Yeah, they sometimes have absurd proportions and seem to cavort about in underclothing an awful lot. But I can live with that, if they are treated respectfully in other ways.

* I realize that this might depend a great deal on what one watches. Maybe I just tend to watch stuff with female characters I like?

[Kingdom]

Well, for one, there are actually girls in real life, that actually exist, that have large breasts. Simply having large breasts does not automatically make a character into fanservice. Although I stopped watching Bleach shortly after the Soul Society arc, I can't remember a single time that Rangiku was put into a skimpy outfit or her breasts were used in a fanservicey way. A couple of characters may have made comments about them (I don't recall), but overall I don't remember her breasts being a huge focus in the show.

I wasn't really going to comment on this, but I guess I could say something since you wrote this. If you would have continued with Bleach, the camera does end up focusing on her breasts a little to much for my liking. Even one part coming out completely naked from the shower (You don't see anything, it's close) and hugging and tickling Orihime. Well anyway, I think they had Kon stare at her a little to much, and I think it is a harmful representation of her character. I think this would fall under filler/bad writing? I don't understand what they try to accomplish with focusing on her breasts but fanservice? Ok to make my story short, I just can't take a character serious when her breasts are a bigger focal point then her story. Which I hope they change in the future, so there is still hope.

Anyway just thought I would give a little heads up, cause you were def. correct up to the point you watched.

[mechana2015]

Although I stopped watching Bleach shortly after the Soul Society arc, I can't remember a single time that Rangiku was put into a skimpy outfit or her breasts were used in a fanservicey way.

Both the manga and the anime did just this not too long after that arc ended. (Rangiku ends up in a schoolgirl outfit that was clearly not made for her and living with Orihime for a bit.)

[Kingdom]

Both the manga and the anime did just this not too long after that arc ended. (Rangiku ends up in a schoolgirl outfit that was clearly not made for her and living with Orihime for a bit.)

LOL I think your thinking of the exact scenes i'm thinking about right?
O.O
::puts a tin foil cap on::

[ShiroiHikari]

I think this would fall under filler/bad writing?

Sounds like Bleach to me.

[Kingdom]

Sounds like Bleach to me.

Yea, I guess they wasted time on pointless things like this, which hurt the anime, and make others uninterested.

But, I would rather see fillers like the first several episodes from the Hueco Mundo arc where they had short stories about the Shinigami helping out humans.

[ShiroiHikari]

Anyway, back on the topic:

I think I agree that anime/manga in general treats female characters better than Western media does. I mean, I have a hard time thinking of female characters from movies and TV shows that are more than just someone for the male lead to have sex with or lust over. I'm not saying good female characters don't exist in Western media, they just seem to be uncommon, in my experience.

[rocklobster]

Actually, for the most part I like how women are depicted in anime/manga better than in US media. I grew up with mostly action/adventure cartoons, where women were mostly what I refer to as "perpetual distressed damsel" (think April O'Neil or Spike Witwicky's girlfriend on the Transformers cartoon). Even in some live action shows I watched, this tended to happen (after all, on classic Doctor Who, Sarah Jane did hold the record for most times kidnapped and/or hypnotized by the enemy). On anime, I don't see that very often, mostly because I go after the more mature shows like Kurau Phantom Memory (I mean mature as in how the subject matter is handled, not as in the subject matter itself). And as Linkara has often pointed out on Atop the Fourth Wall, we Americans looove to objectify women in our comics and media. Don't believe me? Google a picture of the "bad girls" from the 90's. Particularly Lady Death.

[Nate]

If you would have continued with Bleach

Apparently everything that sucks about Bleach happened right after I quit watching it. I guess I have good timing.

I think they had Kon stare at her a little to much

Somehow I doubt that, because Kon is supposed to be a mega-perv, so I don't think he could possibly stare at her too much. Too little, sure.

I think it is a harmful representation of her character.

To be fair, she didn't have much of a character in any of the episodes I saw her in.

I think this would fall under filler/bad writing?

Tite Kubo and bad writing are synonymous.

[ABlipinTime]

Hm... Rereading my own thread and your responses, I gather a few things...

First, I admit, I've never actually watched Spice and Wolf (oo, bad boy, using an example without knowing content) - I'm taking first impression on that one. But whether watching a show or not, that is the impression I (and possibly others) are getting as we scan the lists looking for things to watch. True, if you watch all those shows, you may find that they are better (or worse) than you expected, but unless you do, you may be left with a negative impression.

Second, it's probably my fault for asking this question on an anime-lovers forum. You guys don't seem to care as much about presentation as you do about content (as evidenced from the poll I took about Which anime would you watch based on appearance - no seemed to pay as much attention to the question; the majority said they cared about story and character development).

Third, I didn't really clarify myself: I did not mean skimpy clothing as being dehumanizing. That's more immoral than dehumanizing (and by that I mean I would consider intentionally enticing lust to be as sinful as the lust itself because it's causing others to stumble - but that's a subject for another thread. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Probably not a great idea since Nate is already watching this thread.)

And finally, when I presented the question, I was trying to get only a few pointers out there to start the conversation. What I wanted was to have the question answered (How do you women respond ...?). This isn't a comparison to American media (which, I agree, can be pretty terrible).

So comon guys and gals, you don't need to pick on the only examples I gave (and only meant for thought-provoking for gosh sakes). You've pointed to Bleach as one example, so shall we continue? Or should I just ask this sort of question amongst other company?

[goldenspines]

First, I admit, I've never actually watched Spice and Wolf (oo, bad boy, using an example without knowing content) - I'm taking first impression on that one. But whether watching a show or not, that is the impression I (and possibly others) are getting as we scan the lists looking for things to watch. True, if you watch all those shows, you may find that they are better (or worse) than you expected, but unless you do, you may be left with a negative impression.

No doubt you've heard the phrase "Never judge a book by its cover." It rings true with anime as well. For example, my first impression of Giant Robo, knowing absolutely nothing about it beyond bits and pieces, was that it was a boring, run of the mill old school mecha (it should be noted I tend to think most mecha shows are boring). But this view, of course, is not true at all, and it couldn't be farther from the truth, actually. But had I not actually checked Giant Robo out more and just went with my first impression, I would have missed a wonderful series. Not to mention I'd seem quite naive. If you go through life on first impressions, you never get anywhere.

Second, it's probably my fault for asking this question on an anime-lovers forum. You guys don't seem to care as much about presentation as you do about content (as evidenced from the poll I took about Which anime would you watch based on appearance - no seemed to pay as much attention to the question] This is an odd generalization. I personally didn't see any reason posted in this thread about taking content over presentation. Presentation is essential to a good anime. It's what defines One Piece from Bleach, for example. Both are "shonen" and have some interesting content in them, but because of their presentation, one is leaps and bounds better than the other.

Third, I didn't really clarify myself: I did not mean skimpy clothing as being dehumanizing. That's more immoral than dehumanizing (and by that I mean I would consider intentionally enticing lust to be as sinful as the lust itself because it's causing others to stumble - but that's a subject for another thread. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Probably not a great idea since Nate is already watching this thread.)

Then, what did you mean exactly? I'm not quite sure how your opening post could be read differently.

And finally, when I presented the question, I was trying to get only a few pointers out there to start the conversation. What I wanted was to have the question answered (How do you women respond ...?). This isn't a comparison to American media (which, I agree, can be pretty terrible).

So comon guys and gals, you don't need to pick on the only examples I gave (and only meant for thought-provoking for gosh sakes). You've pointed to Bleach as one example, so shall we continue? Or should I just ask this sort of question amongst other company?

A lot of people did answer your question. They only included your examples in their posts because you gave them.

[minakichan]

What I wanted was to have the question answered (How do you women respond ...?).

Okay, here's my answer:

In general, I won't drop a series JUST because it's not very wonderful to women. Death Note and Bakuman are kind of lolwut in their portrayal of women (with some few but notable examples), but they're awesome series, so I don't really care; I'l complain about it a bit on LiveJournal communities and move on. If it was something whose premise is particularly misogynist-- like The Rapeman-- I wouldn't pick it up in the first place, but also because in the case of something like that, the misogyny is kind of a part of what's already bad about the series (because seriously wut why would you watch that). If it's just HAY LOOK FANSERVICE EVERYWHERE, I sort of feel like it's possible to have an entertaining show that does that, but again, if it does it way too much, it's probably not focusing on what made the show "good" anyway-- which is also kind of why I drop series that are just loooooooong fiiiiiiiiiiiiight sceeeeeeeeenes, which are not particularly offensive.

[Nate]

But whether watching a show or not, that is the impression I (and possibly others) are getting as we scan the lists looking for things to watch.

Wait, I'm confused. Pretty much every description I've ever read anywhere of Spice and Wolf says, very explicitly, that Holo is a wolf deity. Not one single description has ever referred to her as a regular human girl.

This is a sticking point, because you admit you haven't watched it. In that case, you're scrambling for an excuse for why you got something so blatantly wrong. If you're just looking at a single picture of the anime and immediately assuming you know what the content and characters are like just from that, I don't know what to tell you...except that I can't figure out how you ever find anything to watch based on single screenshots of something. I at least want to know what genre the series is, or SOME idea of the plot. Really, if you're not reading descriptions, then that's not the anime's fault, or our fault. That's all on you.

You guys don't seem to care as much about presentation as you do about content

Wait...is this bad? I'm confused what this statement means. You're saying people here don't care if a show has crappy presentation as long as the content is clean/inoffensive? I'm pretty sure that's not the case]is.[/i]

I did not mean skimpy clothing as being dehumanizing.

Right, I know that. You said that you feel giving humans animal-like qualities was dehumanizing, not that it had anything to do with her lack of clothing. The reason I mentioned she doesn't wear clothing is because she is an actual animal, which tend not to wear clothes usually. And I even disagree with you that giving humans animal-like qualities is dehumanizing, but that's outside the scope of this thread.

And finally, when I presented the question, I was trying to get only a few pointers out there to start the conversation. What I wanted was to have the question answered (How do you women respond ...?).

Um...most of us answered your question? I feel that anime and manga usually has decent female role models, and a more positive portrayal of females overall. The reason I compared it to American media was because I was showing how it is a positive portrayal compared to other portrayals of females. I've never had someone complain about giving a point of reference in a discussion before...that's a new one to me. I even saw quite a few women respond to your question too, among them Atria, goldenspines, Lady Rushia, and Mouse2010. So...I'm...not sure what you're complaining about because your question was answered.

So comon guys and gals, you don't need to pick on the only examples I gave (and only meant for thought-provoking for gosh sakes)

We picked on the examples gave because they were bad examples, I'm sorry to say. You used Holo as an example of "dehumanization" of female characters in anime/manga...but the problem is, Holo is not human, as Mina and myself pointed out. Thus your example was faulty.

Your example of Faye Valentine was NOT faulty, but I think only what, one person even responded to that? And they didn't "pick on it," they just disagreed with your assessment and gave reasons why they thought she was not portrayed badly.

[Atria35]

[quote="Nate (post: 1480833)"]Wait...is this bad? I'm confused what this statement means. You're saying people here don't care if a show has crappy presentation as long as the content is clean/inoffensive? I'm pretty sure that's not the case]

Nate, I agree with pretty much everything else you said, but I find this statement convoluted. Why shouldn't we enjoy the content of the show over how it's presented?

Anycase, I'm going to reiterate what I said in my original post, but with different characters/shows.

I do not feel that giving a person cat ears or animal-like qualities necessarily dehumanizes them. Fruits Basket, for instance, has the characters that are associated with animals from the Zodiac. When watching the show or reading the manga, you realize that they are no less human than anyone else- perhaps they are even more complex than the human characters that are presented. It's through seeing them being treated inhumanely or in a dehumanizing way that you realize that there is a lot to these characters. They are in no way dehumanized as characters for having the Zodiac traits or being able to transform into animals.

Is there a tendency towards sexualization of women? Yes. The Major from Ghost in the Shell is probably a great example- she wears a leaotard and jacket for much of the show. At the same time, she is no sex object. She commands a great deal of respect from her subordinates, is a very intelligent character, has guts out the wazzoo. She is never shown making a move on anyone (at least in the anime).

I have no problem with that. I know awesome girls that do happen to dress in skimpy clothing. If a guy messes with them, my friends tell them where to put it.

Besides, I know that guys can be treated the same way. Ouran, for instance, has occasionally shirtless bishies. Do I mind this? No. I'm sure that the sexualization (and they do occasionally have the same type of sexualization that girls in anime recieve) they have might make some guys jealous or uncomfortable. At the same time, they are still fully-realized characters.

In the end, it's a two-way street.

EDIT: Also, the immoral part of skimpy clothing is debatable. I'm wearing long shorts and a baggy t-shirt right now. If I were in the Middle East, I would totally be considered to be dressing like a prostitute. I'm pretty sure most of the people on this forum would not think that. I'm not exactly doing it to entice people's lust.

[Yamamaya]

Hm... Rereading my own thread and your responses, I gather a few things...

First, I admit, I've never actually watched Spice and Wolf (oo, bad boy, using an example without knowing content) - I'm taking first impression on that one. But whether watching a show or not, that is the impression I (and possibly others) are getting as we scan the lists looking for things to watch. True, if you watch all those shows, you may find that they are better (or worse) than you expected, but unless you do, you may be left with a negative impression.

Except we aren't talking about negative impressions. We're talking about animes that actually contain this content. Your example was flawed because you had never watched the show and thus had no way to judge it. It doesn't fit into your example of how anime treats women. It would be like me seeing the name of a band Demon Hunter and start to complain about all music is influenced by Satan or some insanity like that. My example would be deeply flawed since I obviously never listened to Demon Hunter and never realized that they are a "Christian" band.

Second, it's probably my fault for asking this question on an anime-lovers forum. You guys don't seem to care as much about presentation as you do about content (as evidenced from the poll I took about Which anime would you watch based on appearance - no seemed to pay as much attention to the question]

Presentation is still a big factor, but most of us will take story and character development over presentation. This is because we're used to the medium of anime itself, so we're not thinking about the presentation as much as we are about the story. That being said, if a story has a horrible presentation but a good story, I might be inclined not to watch it. Of course, this generally isn't the case in anime.

Third, I didn't really clarify myself: I did not mean skimpy clothing as being dehumanizing. That's more immoral than dehumanizing (and by that I mean I would consider intentionally enticing lust to be as sinful as the lust itself because it's causing others to stumble - but that's a subject for another thread. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Probably not a great idea since Nate is already watching this thread.)

Skimpy is entirely subjective.

And finally, when I presented the question, I was trying to get only a few pointers out there to start the conversation. What I wanted was to have the question answered (How do you women respond ...?). This isn't a comparison to American media (which, I agree, can be pretty terrible).

So comon guys and gals, you don't need to pick on the only examples I gave (and only meant for thought-provoking for gosh sakes). You've pointed to Bleach as one example, so shall we continue? Or should I just ask this sort of question amongst other company?

See, you just lost me there. We did answer your questions. And also bringing up how anime compares with American media is an excellent way to judge how bad or good anime's treatment of women really is.

Bad examples are bad examples bro. If you use bad examples in any sort of speech, people will be focusing on how bad they are rather than the speech itself. Just the nature of the game. That being said, we can examine other anime series as well to see whether or not they objectify women.

[Nate]

Nate, I agree with pretty much everything else you said, but I find this statement convoluted. Why shouldn't we enjoy the content of the show over how it's presented?

I'm not sure what he's saying. He said that on an anime lover's forum, we are going to value content over presentation. There's two ways to take that, which is first that we care more about anime not having "bad" stuff in it then whether it's actually good or not (which isn't true), or that we like shows which have great characters even if it looks like crap.

I took it the first way, because it makes more sense in the context of the question of "Do you feel anime treats women poorly?" I'm still not sure what he's saying there, though, which is probably why my statement is convoluted, because I don't know how to respond to it when I can't understand it.