Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince *SPOILERS*

A place to discuss your favorite authors and poets, Christian and secular

Postby Arnobius » Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:47 pm

Kawaiikneko wrote:same here piloswine.

I'd also like to point out that JK has been planning these books for years, and didn't get her ideas from spiderman or fanfics. She knows what she's doing and she has it planned out already. No one needs influence when they have something so thoroughly planned out. I suspect the "cheesy" ending with harry and ginny may have a deeper part in the next book.

I stand by Snape being good *clings to my theory*

Ah, but she does borrow from the real world... or didn't you notice the paralels between the "detection wands" and airport security in the real world.... things not a concern when the first books came out. There are some other paralels I thought, but that might risk turning this into a political discussion so I won't mention what outside of PMs

I was joking when I mentioned Spiderman, but I have to say I disagree with the idea that she has everything planned out the way things should be... the consistency gaps between Goblet and Pheonix seem to indicate she wasn't sure where she should go with it...

It's a fun read, but it's not a flawless series IMO

[quote="Rocketshipper"]I'm also a little mad at JK for this who Snape thing. From the storie's standpoint it was a good move, and something none of us seemed to have expected, but still...Snape was one of my favorite characters precicely because he seemed to be so mean and yet was still a good guy. Now that's totally ruined. I agree that it's probably unlikely that Snape killed Dumbledore based on his orders]

Personally, I think the reason Snape got so angry about the "Coward" accusation was because he was not too proud of the way he had to do it... he made the unbreakable vow and had to follow through when Draco broke under pressure

While Snape was my favorite character and I was disappointed to see him turn evil, I will be disappointed if it turns out that it was a "super convoluted plot to defeat Voldemort"
User avatar
Arnobius
 
Posts: 2870
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:41 pm

Postby uc pseudonym » Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:21 pm

Hm, what to say about this book? A great deal has already been said.

The foremost topic of conversation: Snape. Unless he is still good, my opinion of Rowling as an author dropped due to the early chapter in which we see Snape interact with Death Eaters. I feel this was extremely clumsy handling of the plot element; the book would be much improved without this chapter. At the moment I refuse to believe anything about Harry Potter, but I lean toward Snape being truly evil (though even with those assumptions I wouldn't rule out him having a Darth Vader-esque final moment).

One thing I did like: Horcruxes. I feel this will help the future plot. It does make me wonder how well a book will fare that apparently will not have Hogwarts as its primary feature. I believe this will remove some of the formulaic elements of the plots. However, I do wonder how Harry will manage everything he intends to... he's simply not at that level of skill. His last "battle" with Snape is a good example of this.

I spent the entire book waiting for an enormous plot twist, mentally cataloging anything that seemed even slightly suspicious (obviously including those things that seem not at all suspicious, knowing Rowling). Shame that no such thing occured, though not necessarily bad writing.

While I've never really identified with Harry (and have been steadily getting older than him), this book marked a much more extreme level of separation. The entire romantic element of the story seemed... immature and simplistic, which translates to annoying. On this subject, I find the term "snogging" to be ridiculous to the point of humorous (though I imagine it is more European slang).

Last but not least, the subject of Dumbledore. I felt it to be somewhat inconvincing; the trap was a difficult one, but I can't help but think he rushed to his decision. However, I've been expecting his death since the first book. It was really rather predictable, though I wasn't certain in what book it would take place. Being my favorite character, I am sad to see him go, but it was inevitable.
User avatar
uc pseudonym
 
Posts: 15506
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:00 am
Location: Tanzania

Postby Kawaiikneko » Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:30 pm

Oh good, I'm not the only person who found the word "snogging" extremely hilarious.

On the topic of RAB, I think Siren's idea is good. But for all we know it could be another new character... who knows?
Image
User avatar
Kawaiikneko
 
Posts: 1404
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:47 pm
Location: I live in a house in a state in a country

Postby the_lizardqueen » Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:34 pm

piloswine wrote:The Dumbledore drinking Voldemort's soul thing, though a creative idea, sounds a bit far fetched to me.

Now that I've calmed down, it is seeming pretty far fetched to me as well :sweat:

What can I say? I'm very much in denial about Snape and desperately clinging to any possible theory that might vindicate him. When I was reading the book, I totally believed that he had out and out betrayed Dumbledore. But my opinion was swayed by the hundreds of theories circulating on the internet. It just doesn't seem right, that Dumbledore would be defeated that easily, and that he would actually beg for his life.

On other forums, people keep going on about how Snape and Dumbledore are both legimens (possible spelling error) and perhaps they were communicating before Snape blasted him off the tower. Others have been citing an earlier argument between Snape and Dumbledore that I definitely have to go back and read through. And then there's the theory that Dumbledore had been poisoned, and he was going to die anyway, and why did he freeze Harry? Augh, I'm confused.

I do agree that it would be rather lame if this was all part of some extremely convoluted plot to take down Voldemort. Although I didn't mind the 'romance' (using that term losely) that was hucked in, perhaps it could have been better written, but I think the story would have suffered far more if Harry remained pretty much oblivious to the opposite gender. My brother is sixteen, and the behavior in the book seemed fairly true to life. Though Rowling was exagerating a bit, I hope :lol:
[color="lightgreen"]"There is an art, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."

-The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy[/color]
User avatar
the_lizardqueen
 
Posts: 1271
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 12:08 pm
Location: The Canadian prairies

Postby Kawaiikneko » Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:40 pm

I agree that the confused teen romance was sorta needed... though I got the feeling like it was a fanfic, not the actual canon in some places.
Image
User avatar
Kawaiikneko
 
Posts: 1404
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:47 pm
Location: I live in a house in a state in a country

Postby the_lizardqueen » Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:46 pm

Yeah, it was kinda fanfic-like in spots. Though Ron and Hermoine didn't actually get together (which would happen immediately in a fanfic), and thank goodness Hermoine and Draco didn't happen (also prone to happening in fanfics). Um, not that I read that many HP fanfics :sweat:

Oo, I forgot to mention earlier. I quite like Siren's RAB theory as well, and Piloswine made an excellent point about the locket. That would be kinda cool though, if it was a new character. But I am already getting rather confuzzled trying to keep track of all the characters that Rowling has introduced...there's so many...*disoriented*
[color="lightgreen"]"There is an art, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."

-The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy[/color]
User avatar
the_lizardqueen
 
Posts: 1271
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 12:08 pm
Location: The Canadian prairies

Postby Lehn » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:07 pm

mugglenet.com wrote:On RAB:

1) He has to be dead.
Regulus died sixteen years ago as of HBP, and if he knew he would be killed for deserting Voldemort, that is likely why he thinks he will "long be dead" by the time the note is ever read.
2) He knows about Voldemort's Horcruxes.
From what Voldemort has said, it seems possible that Regulus could have found out about the Horcruxes.

3) He knows Voldemort personally.
If he was a Death Eater, he certainly would have known Voldemort personally.

4) He knows that someone will come along to finish off Voldemort.
If he happened to hear of the prophecy, he would know that there would be someone in the future to contend with Voldemort.


I really don't care personally for the idea of Regulus being RAB. Because it seems kinda cheesy. I know everything kind of points in that direction --- the locket at the Black House and the things listed off in that mugglenet editorial, but still, the idea of it being him sits uneasily with me. If its Regulus --- she already has draco struggling with attempting to please and protect his family via serving Voldy in VolWar II, having Regulus doing the same thing in a different time setting seems like over-kill. Two characters playing the exact same roles. There's been mention of many other wizards and witches doing the same thing -- but as far major characters go, that seems like too similar of characterization.

Regulus might be the clear-cut and right answer, but I hope its a new character.
“Have courage for the great sorrows of life and patience for the small ones; and when you have laboriously accomplished your daily task, go to sleep in peace. God is awake.â€
User avatar
Lehn
 
Posts: 460
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:43 pm

Postby Scribs » Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:18 pm

Yeah, I really think that Rowling said too much about Regulus for him to be completely unimportant, and also the fact that the locket reference was made within pages of the regulus black info makes me almost certain.

I still hold that Snape is guilty as charged, and that all these "he is still a good guy!" theorys are but wishful thinking.
"I concluded from the begining that this would be the end; and I am right, for it is not half over."
-Sir Boyle Roche
User avatar
Scribs
 
Posts: 2722
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:00 am
Location: Unknown

Postby uc pseudonym » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:43 am

the_lizardqueen wrote:And then there's the theory that Dumbledore had been poisoned, and he was going to die anyway, and why did he freeze Harry?


I presumed at the time that Dumbledore froze Harry to save his life. Knowing Harry, he would likely have done something very foolish and gotten killed by the Death Eaters.

the_lizardqueen wrote:Although I didn't mind the 'romance' (using that term losely) that was hucked in, perhaps it could have been better written, but I think the story would have suffered far more if Harry remained pretty much oblivious to the opposite gender. My brother is sixteen, and the behavior in the book seemed fairly true to life.


Suffered? You truly think so? That is an opinion, so it doesn't need to be answered. For my part, I will merely say that I was once sixteen.
User avatar
uc pseudonym
 
Posts: 15506
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:00 am
Location: Tanzania

Postby the_lizardqueen » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:14 am

UC pseudonym wrote:I presumed at the time that Dumbledore froze Harry to save his life. Knowing Harry, he would likely have done something very foolish and gotten killed by the Death Eaters.

That's also what I thought while I was reading the book, but in hindsight I'm not so sure. Afterall, it was only Malfoy that initially burst through the doors. But perhaps Dumbledore didn't want Harry and Draco fighting to the death, and he was probably aware of the approaching Death Eaters. It doesn't entirely sit well with me (likely due to my state of denial over Snape), but I have to admit that preventing Harry from taking a rash course of action is probably the strongest, most logical reason.
UC pseudonym wrote:Suffered? You truly think so? That is an opinion, so it doesn't need to be answered. For my part, I will merely say that I was once sixteen.

Okay, okay, suffered is way to strong a word. And I do admit to being rather annoyed by Ron's drastic over-reaction to Hermoine's brief relationship with Victor Krum, which is now ancient history. But I was rather amused by the subplot at points, and while it might not have been the best way to go about it, it did provide some relief from the overall sense of darkness and forboding. Some might argue that Rowling should simply let the darker themes take over, but that's a matter of personal opinion.
[color="lightgreen"]"There is an art, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."

-The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy[/color]
User avatar
the_lizardqueen
 
Posts: 1271
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 12:08 pm
Location: The Canadian prairies

Postby Kireihana » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:56 pm

As I've already said, I also disliked the "romance" in HBP. It seemed way too shallow. I am 15 and in high school and yeah, kids get together just for the sake of "snogging" (I am so thankful we don't have that term here), but I'd say that a far greater number (and this may simply be the nature of people where I live) are serious about their relationships and actually know each other on a personal level... unlike Ron and Lavender. I know that most teen relationships are somewhat petty but still, Ron takes it to a whole new level.

Piloswine mentioned this quote earlier:

[quote="Half Blood Prince"]
"You use my own spells against me, Potter? ... And you would turn my inventions against me like your filthy father would you? I dont think so...no!
Harry dived for his wand]

To say that Snape's face was suddenly "demented", "inhuman" and to suggest that he was in pain seems like a far more serious reaction than just his personal disgust and/or anger. I'm wondering (and this is just a theory) if he is not bound by another Unbreakable Vow which forbids him from killing Harry. He certainly has had more than one opportunity and hates him enough. Harry was valuable to Voldemort before, but not now that Voldemort's finally back in power.
User avatar
Kireihana
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:44 pm
Location: Tennessee

Postby Kawaiikneko » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:17 pm

I'd also like to point out that Sirius didn't seem good at all until just before JK showed him as good. She is more than able to write a character as evil while they're actually good.
Image
User avatar
Kawaiikneko
 
Posts: 1404
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:47 pm
Location: I live in a house in a state in a country

Postby Arnobius » Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:30 pm

With Sirius, it seemed we only knew innuendo and hearsay until they met him. Personally, I think Snape has been around too long to pull the same stunt.
User avatar
Arnobius
 
Posts: 2870
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:41 pm

Postby Kireihana » Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:29 am

But I'd also like to point out that Harry has been pretty much completely wrong about every single person so far in the books (excepting, this time, Malfoy). He was mistaken about Sirius, Tom Riddle's diary, the Half-Blood Prince (Snape), Viktor Krum... whether the person is proven to be good or bad, Harry seems to get the wrong idea of them at first. Maybe he is wrong about Snape again (I mean, how many times has he blamed Snape for stuff in the past??) There's no doubt about it, Snape's guilty this time, but maybe he's still not as bad as Rowling wants us to believe.

I'm only saying this because up to this point Snape has been such a dynamic character. I can't possibly see how he can be useful as a flat-out evil Voldemort henchman. I still think he may end up aiding Harry at one point or another.
User avatar
Kireihana
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:44 pm
Location: Tennessee

Postby uc pseudonym » Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:28 am

the_lizardqueen wrote:Okay, okay, suffered is way to strong a word. And I do admit to being rather annoyed by Ron's drastic over-reaction to Hermoine's brief relationship with Victor Krum, which is now ancient history. But I was rather amused by the subplot at points, and while it might not have been the best way to go about it, it did provide some relief from the overall sense of darkness and forboding. Some might argue that Rowling should simply let the darker themes take over, but that's a matter of personal opinion.


Ah. That makes more sense to me.

AnimeHeretic wrote:With Sirius, it seemed we only knew innuendo and hearsay until they met him. Personally, I think Snape has been around too long to pull the same stunt.


That is also my feeling on the subject. We have actual information about Snape... even if Rowling has been known to plant false information.

Kireihana wrote:But I'd also like to point out that Harry has been pretty much completely wrong about every single person so far in the books (excepting, this time, Malfoy). He was mistaken about Sirius, Tom Riddle's diary, the Half-Blood Prince (Snape), Viktor Krum... whether the person is proven to be good or bad, Harry seems to get the wrong idea of them at first. Maybe he is wrong about Snape again (I mean, how many times has he blamed Snape for stuff in the past??) There's no doubt about it, Snape's guilty this time, but maybe he's still not as bad as Rowling wants us to believe.


Wrong about questionable characters, in any case. His judgements seems acceptable in the case of Voldemort. By some logic, Snape has crossed the line. As I said earlier, however, I still reserve judgement on the subject.
User avatar
uc pseudonym
 
Posts: 15506
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:00 am
Location: Tanzania

Postby Scribs » Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:04 pm

I'm wondering (and this is just a theory) if he is not bound by another Unbreakable Vow which forbids him from killing Harry. He certainly has had more than one opportunity and hates him enough.


Now that would make sense! It could be that he made a vow to Dumbledore that he would do all he could to protect and help Harry, even though he was still loyal to voldemort. This could explain things like why he told the order of the pheonix about harry going to the ministry in book 5, and why he stops the other death eaters from getting at harry in this one. Good thinking Kireihana.
"I concluded from the begining that this would be the end; and I am right, for it is not half over."
-Sir Boyle Roche
User avatar
Scribs
 
Posts: 2722
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:00 am
Location: Unknown

Postby Mangafanatic » Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:57 pm

I have returned, my faithful breathren, and I have finished Harry Potter since my recent return to the country!

My thoughts are as follows (Forgive me for now reading every page that's been posted so far. My brain is still numb from arriving at 5:00 am a few nights ago, and the prospect of reading so much caused my little brain to threaten to leave my skull.):

1. I love the GinnyxHarry pairing as well as the [long time coming] RonxHermione pairing. What I didn't really like was all the freakin' time it took to get it together. A little too much angst for my taste. Luckily, it didn't ruin the book for me, though.

2. I'm glad that Snape's evil is out in the open. While I didn't see his imminent treachery coming at the end of book five, I did see it as an inevitablility by a few chapters into the book. Some of my friends said they just kept waiting for him to reveal that he was really loyal to Dumbledore, but I was pretty sure from the beginning that he was finally showing his true colors. . . And might it be that Snape has a thing for Draco's MOM!? AHHHH!!!

3. Dumbledore's death was tragic. I had hoped that it would be possible for that element of stability in Harry's life to be maintained, but I understand why Rowling chose to do what she did. It's obvious from Harry's move in the end of this book to distance himself from Ginny that he's being set up for a "I have no protection, no hindrances, and no hesitations" battle with Voldemort. It was odd seeing an. . . old Dumbledore. Upto this book, he seemed almost invicible in his powers as a wizard. This book showed us a sadly weaken Dumbledore. And. . . in the end, A Dumbledore who died protecting the students he devoted his life to. Very. Very. Sad.

4. Okay, personally, I thought that the TonksxLupin set up was wonderful. I'm so glad that Tonks isn't pining after a dead guy.

. . . Let's just hope they're both still alive by the end of the next book.

5. There's been alot of discussion as to why Dumbledore postponed his killing until Snape could come and do it (Atleast, there was discussion of this topic on the first two pages which I read :lol: ) My personal opinion is that Dumbledore was trying to talk Draco out of going over to the evil side, since he obvious wasn't that seduced by the idea but rather did it out of fear. My opinion was that Dumbledore sincerely hoped that Draco would give up and they could some how all get away. Then Snape appeared. Remember, Snape made an unbreakable vow with Narcissa Malfoy and, if Draco proved unable to preform the task the Dark Lord had given him, he would preform it in his place. It was obvious to Snape that Draco couldn't kill Dumbledore (Remember, you have to truly want to inflict harm for an unforgivable curse to work) so he simple fullfilled his vow to Narcissa by performing the act in Draco's place. There's my three cents.

Overall: The book was a little unfulfilling. Not enough of a super thick plot to impress me as much as previous book, but, honestly, I think I might know why that is. IMHO, this book was a prequel to 7. In otherwords, it was all set up for the final confrontation. We have a) unsettled rivalries with both Snape and Malfoy b) the itching question of "who is thie R.A.B. who beat Harry and Dumbledore to the Horcrux c) the revelation that Harry will not be attending school next year d) the understanding that the rest of HArry's adventure will be devoted solely to collecting the pieces of Voldemort's soul-- including the splinter that's rotting in his body.

But it really was a good book. It just didn't measure upto my expectations. But I guess nothing could have. :)
Every year in Uganda, innumerable children simply. . . disappear. These children all stolen under the cover of darkness from their homes and impressed into the guerilla armies of the LRA [Lord's Resistance Army]. In the deserts of Uganda, they are forced to witness the mindless slaughter of other children until they themselves can do nothing but kill. Kill. These children, generally ranging from ages 5-12, are brainwashed into murdering in the name of the resistance and into stealing other children from their beds to suffer the same fate.

Because of this genocide of innocence, hundred and hundreds of children live every night sleeping in public places miles from their homes, because they know that if the do not-- they will disappear. They will become just another number in this genocide to which the international community has chosen to turn a blind eye. They will become, in affect, invisible-- Invisible Children.

But there are those who are trying to fight against this slaughter of Uganda's children. They fight to protect these "invisible children." Please, help them help a country full of children who know nothing by fear. Help save the innocence. For more information concerning how you can help and how you can get an incredible video about this horrific reality, visit the Invisible Children home page.
User avatar
Mangafanatic
 
Posts: 4918
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:00 am
Location: In La-La land.

Postby Kireihana » Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:17 pm

Mangafanatic wrote:And might it be that Snape has a thing for Draco's MOM!? AHHHH!!!

Well with Lucius out of the way... (I kid! :lol: )

Mangafanatic wrote:Okay, personally, I thought that the TonksxLupin set up was wonderful. I'm so glad that Tonks isn't pining after a dead guy.

Especially since Sirius was her cousin... that kind of weirded me out. :eh:

What are we going to do without Hogwarts in book 7??!?
User avatar
Kireihana
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:44 pm
Location: Tennessee

Postby Mangafanatic » Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:25 am

Kireihana wrote:What are we going to do without Hogwarts in book 7??!?



Um, curl up in fetal position and cry?

No really, I'd honestly thought there really was no way that Hogwarts would be functioning in a normal capacity by book 7. And even if it was, it wouldn't be the place for Harry.

It will be interesting to see how Rowling handles this new form for her books. No more "formula."

Geez, I can't wait for seven (seeing as book six seemed to be build up for it.)
Every year in Uganda, innumerable children simply. . . disappear. These children all stolen under the cover of darkness from their homes and impressed into the guerilla armies of the LRA [Lord's Resistance Army]. In the deserts of Uganda, they are forced to witness the mindless slaughter of other children until they themselves can do nothing but kill. Kill. These children, generally ranging from ages 5-12, are brainwashed into murdering in the name of the resistance and into stealing other children from their beds to suffer the same fate.

Because of this genocide of innocence, hundred and hundreds of children live every night sleeping in public places miles from their homes, because they know that if the do not-- they will disappear. They will become just another number in this genocide to which the international community has chosen to turn a blind eye. They will become, in affect, invisible-- Invisible Children.

But there are those who are trying to fight against this slaughter of Uganda's children. They fight to protect these "invisible children." Please, help them help a country full of children who know nothing by fear. Help save the innocence. For more information concerning how you can help and how you can get an incredible video about this horrific reality, visit the Invisible Children home page.
User avatar
Mangafanatic
 
Posts: 4918
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:00 am
Location: In La-La land.

Postby Doubleshadow » Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:12 pm

Kireihana wrote:Well with Lucius out of the way... (I kid! :lol: )


Especially since Sirius was her cousin... that kind of weirded me out. :eh:

What are we going to do without Hogwarts in book 7??!?


My thoughts exactly. :lol: Alright, first off... I really need to reread the book, I kinda blew threw it. :sweat:

Anyways, considering Harry is moving from victimized adolescent to independent adult during the course of the series, it seemed inevitable that Dumbledore would buy the farm. Harry was relying on him too much. As soon as he said he was "Dumbledore's man" I thought, "Yup, he's a gonner." As to whether or not he had suspected he would/could be killed by Snape, I'm not sure.

On to Snape. I can't see Dumbledore pleading either. I think Snape was mighty unhinged during the scene, not behavior I would expect if he had known this was coming or even looked forward to it. I also think not even Snape could have pulled one over on Dumbledore. I say he had enough sense to see that Voldemort would be overcome somehow. Dumbledore's final words on the tower must have had a meaning only clear to Dumbledore and Snape.

Pairings. Tonks and Remus? I didn't see that coming, although I knew it wasn't Sirius. Hermione and Ron. Did see that coming, and doesn't Lavender know she was being used? Honestly. Harry and Ginny, saw it coming too, and the last interaction there was not particulary convincing. Ginny seemed to be the type that would not let him go alone to get killed while she quitely waited for him.

Other questions:
How the heck did RAB get past all those enchantments and replace that water all by himself?
Is Rowlings really going to omit Hogwarts and cram four objects into the last book?
Wonder who will be filling the two new teaching positions and who will now ne head of Slytherin? Professor Trelawney. Come on, I want to see it! Or maybe Hagrid (keep'em in line!), or possibly the mysterious Professor Vector.
[color="Red"]As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. - Proverbs 23:7[/color]

The Sundries
Robin: "If we close our eyes, we can't see anything."
Batman: "A sound observation, Robin."
User avatar
Doubleshadow
 
Posts: 2102
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:04 pm
Location: ... What's burning?

Postby uc pseudonym » Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:06 pm

I believe I have stated my opinion on everything raised again, as this has been a somewhat long thread. Other than that, I have to say I wince at the use of the term "pairings." This is the author's own work.

Doubleshadow wrote:How the heck did RAB get past all those enchantments and replace that water all by himself?


Probably by not doing exactly what the creator of the trap intended someone to do.
User avatar
uc pseudonym
 
Posts: 15506
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:00 am
Location: Tanzania

Postby Kawaiikneko » Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:12 pm

I'm wondering if Dumbledore could have done it himself if he had been in his "prime" (so to speak). Another possiblility would be that there are alternative and less dangerous methods to getting the horcrux that only someone who knew it could do. Possibly RAB was someone near to Voldemort and knew that method?
Image
User avatar
Kawaiikneko
 
Posts: 1404
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:47 pm
Location: I live in a house in a state in a country

Postby Scribs » Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:46 pm

Wonder who will be filling the two new teaching positions and who will now ne head of Slytherin? Professor Trelawney. Come on, I want to see it! Or maybe Hagrid (keep'em in line!), or possibly the mysterious Professor Vector.


if hogwarts does reopen next year, I would think that Slughorn would be the head of slytherin. He did stand in for that role at the end of this one. The real question would be, who will teach defence against the dark arts, and who will be head of gryfindor (now that mcgonogal is headmistriss).
"I concluded from the begining that this would be the end; and I am right, for it is not half over."
-Sir Boyle Roche
User avatar
Scribs
 
Posts: 2722
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:00 am
Location: Unknown

Postby Kat Walker » Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:12 pm

My quick list of theories on Snape in the HBP:

(Of course, spoiler warning. I'm sure most people have read the book by now. If you haven't, why are you reading this thread anyway? Unless you don't care about ruining the ending, of course. So anyway, last warning.)


#1) He's really evil.

It might be that he actually WAS a double agent who was clever enough to both fool Dumbledore AND regain Voldemort's trust after all the DE's wimped out when he dissappeared. If this is true, he sure did a good job of explaining his rationale during the conversation with Bellatrix in Ch. 2.

#2) He may or may not be evil, but was forced to do Draco's job

The Unbreakable Vow theory still keeps open the possibility of Snape being on the good side (or if not totally "good", then at least still anti-Voldemort to some degree). This would make his character more interesting, as it means that he may have to do something very drastic to redeem himself in Book 7. Sure, it could be considered cowardly to kill off Dumbledore to save his own life, but when you look at it he had no choice. Even if he had spared Dumbledore, he'd be dead and all the valuable connections he had and the secrets he knew about the Dark Lord would be lost to the good guys. That, and the minute he was dead surely the other Death Eaters would have killed Dumbledore anyway. That, and there'd be no one to cover for Draco.

#3) Dumbledore knew about the vow, and sacrificed himself to save Draco AND Snape
If Snape was indeed a loyal, reformed member of the Order, I'm more than sure that he'd have told Dumbledore about his agreement with Draco's mother. In the confrontation with Draco, Dumbledore indicated that he already knew beforehand what Draco was up to and who was behind the (accidental) attacks on Ron and Katie. How could he have possibly known this unless Snape had filled him in to the events prior? He also indicated in that same conversation that he was trying to protect Draco the entire time, and being the smart wizard he is I'm positive that he told Snape well beforehand that if things got desperate to simply finish him off, no questions asked. Dumbledore is the kind of headmaster that would do anything to protect his students, so I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. It may also explain why Snape's face was described as being "filled with hate and revulsion" as he committed the deed -- that "hate and revulsion" was probably directed at himself, not Dumbledore. He was filled with self-loathing, guilt, and regret at what he was forced to do to the man who'd shown him more mercy and forgiveness than anyone ever had. If it was true that he regretted being the one who gave Voldemort the means to kill Harry and his parents, then of course this would crush him. When Dumbledore was pleading with Snape, it wasn't for his life, but rather for him to do what he desperately did not want to do.

Any more theories? Post away!
Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.

Colossians 3:14

~ my personal website ~
User avatar
Kat Walker
 
Posts: 321
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 3:40 pm

Postby Silvanis » Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:12 pm

Interesting points. My thoughts are similar.
User avatar
Silvanis
 
Posts: 652
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:00 am
Location: Sleeping amid the spring flowers.

Postby Yumie » Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:24 pm

OK, I've finally read through all these posts and I get to put in my ideas!!

OK, first of all-- RAB! As I was lying in bed the night I finished the book (at 12:20 in the morning. . .) I came up with Regulus. OK, pro's and con's to this possibility:

Pro's: Regulus was a death eater, and the person who got to the horcrux was a death eater. How do I know this? Because RAB addressed the letter, "To the Dark Lord," and it has already been made clear to us in all prior books that only death eaters refer to him as "the Dark Lord." Secondly, Rowling did after all introduce the guy, and when has Rowling ever made such a big deal over a pointless character? Not that she necessarily made a HUGE deal over him, but you didn't hear her going into such great-depths about Sirius's mom. . . beyond that, if a person were to do it single-handedly, they would have to know something that Dumbledore didn't know, another thing backing up the death eater theory. All this, and Regulus is the only afore mentioned character I can think of whose initials coincide, and I don't think Rowling would introduce a completely new important character in the last book. Hence, Regulus.

Con's: Regulus was killed fifteen years ago. So, how long ago exactly would Voldemort have had to created the horcrux? It's never too clear to us when he created all of them, but some things make it sound as though perhaps Voldemort had not completed the last of his horcruxes until, possibly, recently. Such as Nagini, for instance. Also, the other thing I thought of that would make Regulus seem a slightly less likely possibility is the fact that so many of us thought of him right away. Since when have we known Rowling to be so obvious? It would seem like relatively poor planning and writing to make it so easy to figure it out (easy enough I could figure it out half-asleep.)

I'm pretty sure I'll come up with some other stuff in the future, I keep coming up with new things and forgetting others just as fast. Anywho, moving on.

OK, everybody keeps talking about how annoying Ron was, "snogging" Lavender like that. But I think everybody has it all wrong about his motive. Yes, I think part of it probably was as revenge against Hermione for her relationship with Viktor, but I think the major reason would probably actually be to prove something to Harry and Ginny. OK, think about it-- if your LITTLE SISTER gave you that harsh of a tongue-lashing in front of your BEST FRIEND, saying you had "about the experience of a twelve-year old"-- well, I think if it had been me I'd feel so embarrassed I'd be ready to go out and "snog" anybody to prove her wrong, no matter how ridiculous that term is. And Lavender was the easy target, she'd already expressed interest in him and so she fell prey to his using her to boost his self-esteem in regards to Harry and Ginny's opinion of him. Which might be why he reacted to Hermione's asking Cormac out so adversely: he might not have considered how it would affect her, being preoccupied with Harry and Ginny like that. So, no matter how annoying it was, I think it might kind of make some sense.

I'm not sure what to think of Snape right now-- I'm trying to figure out if I should hate him, or hold out hope that he might redeem himself. I really think Osaka is right, I think he might have a thing for Narcissa, which might be why he's always favored Draco so much. I mean, there have to be some other promising Slytherines, why Draco? So the only other thing I can think of concerning this issue is that possibly Snape's loyalty does not lie in the dark side with Voldemort, but maybe with Narcissa. It's possible he was willing to forgoe his allegiance to Dumbledore for Narcissa's sake. Can't really decide what I think for sure though. I think the idea about Snape having made arrangements with Dumbledore beforehand is also very plaussible.

I thought it was really interesting learning so much about Voldemort's past, it was cool learning how he got to the point he's at. And I'm actually half glad that the next book is not going to be set at Hogwarts, it will make way for some fresh new material for the finale. And I'm sorry, but does anybody ACTUALLY believe that Ginny is just going to sit on her butt at home while the Harry/Hermione/Ron trio go off and find adventure? Puh-lease! She's totally going to go with them. And lastly, I have an inkling that Draco is going to play a HUGE roll in the next book-- I think he might actually kill Snape. That would be something, huh?

Anyways, I can't wait to find out for sure, (but then again, I'm sad that before long it will all be over. . . :(. . .)
User avatar
Yumie
 
Posts: 1939
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:00 pm
Location: In a house

Postby Rachel » Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:26 pm

I think your third theory seems the most likely, Kat.

OT: I haven't seen you on in forever. How are ya doing?
:rock: I mourn for those who never knew you



Click here for kick booty music!!

American by birth, Texan by the grace of God


This is where you can find me if I'm not on for a while
User avatar
Rachel
 
Posts: 1056
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:00 am
Location: Wichita Falls, Texas

Postby Kawaiikneko » Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:37 pm

Despite Harry's decision at the end of the book, I think he'll get back to Hogwarts anyhow. His feelings at the end of one book haven't been the same as his feelings at the beginning of the book after it yet.\

I would die if Draco killed Snape btw... T__T I wouldn't even mind it much if Harry kills Snape, finding out afterward that Snape was good, of course. That would be hilarious. I would be so sad but seeing Harry be like "OH crap I killed him and he wasn't evil!" would totally make up for it.
Image
User avatar
Kawaiikneko
 
Posts: 1404
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:47 pm
Location: I live in a house in a state in a country

Postby Yumie » Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:43 pm

Isn't it kind of impossible for Harry to go back to Hogwarts though? I mean, the whole point is that he HAS to find all the horcruxes before he faces Voldemort, and the series can't end untill he faces him, so basically he has to get out there and get it done, he hasn't really got a choice (at least, that's how it seems to me.) And Harry and Ron and Hermione all seemed pretty decided there at the end, it's not just up to Harry to change his mind anymore, he's affirmed his plans with his friends and it seems like their all ready to go ahead with it.

When you say that you would die if Draco killed Snape, do you mean that in a good way or a bad way? As in would you die of happiness or would you die of agony? lol. . .
User avatar
Yumie
 
Posts: 1939
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:00 pm
Location: In a house

Postby Kat Walker » Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:02 am

Con's: Regulus was killed fifteen years ago. So, how long ago exactly would Voldemort have had to created the horcrux? It's never too clear to us when he created all of them, but some things make it sound as though perhaps Voldemort had not completed the last of his horcruxes until, possibly, recently. Such as Nagini, for instance. Also, the other thing I thought of that would make Regulus seem a slightly less likely possibility is the fact that so many of us thought of him right away. Since when have we known Rowling to be so obvious? It would seem like relatively poor planning and writing to make it so easy to figure it out (easy enough I could figure it out half-asleep.)


Well, signs do seem to be pointing towards Regulus Black. He is basically the only candidate, short of Rowling introducing a new character in the last book.

She has a tendency to flesh out background characters and give them important roles when you least expect it, so R.A.B. = Regulus seems EXTREMELY likely (I think this was confirmed in her Mugglenet.com interview, anyway). It would also do a better job of explaining the reasons behind his betrayal of Voldemort. Who knows, maybe he wasn't even really evil! Perhaps he joined the Death Eaters with the intention of destroying them from within, and they found him out and killed him when he refused to do Voldemort's murderous bidding. Sure seems a lot more interesting than Sirius' explanation that he just lost his nerve.

I for one think it was pretty easy to single out Regulus because:

A.) He's the only character with the initials R.A.B. (we dont know his middle name, but we will soon I'm sure)
B.) He has the perfect back-story for the job
C.) We're nearing the last book, there aren't many characters to choose from, and adding a new one at the last minute would just be a weak, contrived gimmick

I don't think that just because there aren't mounds of elaborate mysteries or conspiracies regarding the identity of RAB floating about mean that the Regulus theory is automatically void. Harry Potter fans tend to read far, FAR too much into things. They're totally wrong a vast majority of the time anyway.

BTW, Voldemort had been interested in horcruxes since his days at Hogwarts. So it's safe to assume he made his first ones shortly after he graduated (which is when he acquired most of his valuable trinkets).

OH OH! By the way, does anyone else think Rufus Scrimegour might be...evil?

OT: Oh yes, hello everyone! After many months of strenuous school and internet connection failures, I have finally returned. ^^;
Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.

Colossians 3:14

~ my personal website ~
User avatar
Kat Walker
 
Posts: 321
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 3:40 pm

Previous Next

Return to Book Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 135 guests