The Holy Bible.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Anime4Christ, its good to see you have passion for Jesus and the Truth, (I believe the same as you) but going up against more learned people even if they view differently is just going to cause flame wars. I do understand what you're saying.

[Technomancer]

Frauds? Do u have any idea how many ppl got saved thru his ministry? God doesn't use frauds to do his work! (at least mine doesn't)

Hovind is a fraud because he claims credentials and expertise that he does not possess. His Ph.D was acquired through a mail order diploma mill and not through a legitimate university. Apparently this is legal in some states. Moreover what he claims to have done for his Ph.D doesn't even come close to the real requirements for such a degree.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/credentials.html
http://www.geocities.com/kenthovind/

His understanding of science, even the non-evolutionary kind is perfectly abysmal and reveals his lack of education in this matter. Those with some scientific literacy generally consider the man to be a clown and citing him will garner you little respect.

If you are traveling down the highway at sixty miles an hour, and turn your headlights on, how fast is the light going from your headlights? Compared to you, it is going at the speed of light. Compared to someone on the sidewalk it is going at the speed of light plus sixty miles an hour.

'nuff said.

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20011025205233/home1.gte.net/dmadh/hovind6.htm

[Nate]

f you are traveling down the highway at sixty miles an hour, and turn your headlights on, how fast is the light going from your headlights? Compared to you, it is going at the speed of light. Compared to someone on the sidewalk it is going at the speed of light plus sixty miles an hour.

*is laughing maniacally*

People actually LISTEN to this joker? Man, I guess it really DOES take all types.

And evolution is a stupid religion designed to remove God.

Okay, let me try again. Evolution is used by atheists to disprove God. Is this the intention of evolution? NO. Want an analogy?

Scissors are designed to cut paper. That is why they are invented. Now, a psycho can take a pair of scissors and stab someone to death with them. Is that the intention of the scissors manufacturers? No. It is an unfortunate side effect.

So it goes with the theory of evolution. Though atheists can use it to TRY and disprove God (they fail, of course), it is not the intention of the theory.

Plus, doing it literally the way Genesis says would make my God more powerful.

So you're saying God isn't powerful unless He did it in six days? That's a pretty small God too, in my opinion. The length of time He took has NOTHING to do with His power. He created a universe, that's more than YOU'VE done. That's more than you'll EVER be able to do, whether he took ten billion years or ten seconds, either way, He is FAR more powerful than you.

If you believe in theistic evolution, let's not argue about it because I believe in a completely different God.

I am a theistic evolutionist who believes in a trinitarian God who sent His son Jesus Christ to die on a cross for our sins, so that we may never die, but have everlasting life. Unless you somehow deny Christ's divinity or His resurrection, we believe in the same God.

Mine did it six literal days

Oh, really? Well, then tell me another thing. What did Adam and Eve look like? You must have been there, that's the ONLY way you can know 100% how long it took. The difference between me and you is that though I believe God did not take six literal days to create our planet, I know that I could be wrong. I NEVER, EVER claimed to know 100% how long God took to create everything. Because NO ONE BUT GOD WAS THERE. To say that you know for a FACT how long God took is saying you know as much as God does. And I was raised to believe that someone who claims to know as much as God is speaking blasphemy.

If you want to believe in six literal days, fine. More power to you. But don't ever, EVER claim to know it for a fact. Because YOU DON'T, YOU WERE NOT THERE.

Quote from our Lord God Almighty:

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?

Job 38:3-4

Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this

"What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?

Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?

Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!

Job 38:18-21

God is talking to Job in those verses. Hmm, see a parallel between those verses and the discussion in this thread?

Whatever. I'm done now. NEITHER side can be proven 100%. I think it's VERY rude and childish for you to sit there and claim that anyone who believes in evolution and a non-literal six day creation is not a Christian.

Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. - Romans 14:4

[anime4christ]

Hey, who r u guys to claim that someone who works his ministry full time and has helped save thousands of souls a fraud? Was it your "calingl" to call him a fraud?

2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The second part cancels out the first part, this just means that time doesn't mean anything to God, and it says a thousand, not a billion.

And chlorophil plants cannot survive a thousand years without sunlight.

And besides, God calls for Christians to come together, so don't call great men of God frauds.

BTW, many ppl speak against Hovind like many spoke against Micah, the prophet who foretold Ahabs death. And who was wrong? Think about it. Majority doesn't decide what's right.

Thanks. I'm done.

[Zane]

OKay!!!!!!

Lets all just take a breath and chill for a second here!!!
I can see that everyones getting slightly fustrated, and shots have been fired which have nothing to do with the topic, (such as the fallacies of "poisioning the well", "hasty generalization", and "dicto simplicitor").

I would like to reiturate my point that Genesis' focus is on WHY God created the earth and not HOW he created the earth.... in the end isn't the purpose more important than the means?
Technomancer is not alone in his believe that God may have used evolution as part of his plan, as is evident in Kamm, while Anime4Christ believes in a literal 6 day creation, as does Tintin (aka Warrior 4 Jesus). I know that both sides are Christians saved by the blood of Jesus and love the LORD and want to see him glorified, as do I.



To sum up though, because I would HATE this thread to get locked because of quibbeling over, in the scheme of things, a rather insignificant point, about HOW God created the world. Both sides have some querky issues, although they don't like to admit it, about their notions on the means of God handiwork.
Evolution; adaption to the environment through natural selection by the elements etc, implies death, and evolution taking place before the fall of man implies death, and persumably suffering, before the Fall. Yet the Bible clearly states around the place that death is the consequence of sin and the fall. So there is a slight inconcidence there. (I am sure that it can be explained hypotetically, [ie animals didn't feel pain etc], but please do not do it here and pm me your answer if you have one, I want to end this unkind and unhealthy debate so that we can move on and agree that there is more to both sides of the debate than just blind ignorance or extreme libralisim, please help me in this ok?)

On the other yes Anime4christ you have a valied point, about evolution being a 'religion' and being used by atheist to try and disprove God. But the only reason it has been snapped up so fast since the 1860's is because it is the only option available to athiest to try and explain our existance without God and not have to face up to their sinfullness. Sinners will use anything to try and hide away from confronting their sins and God just condemnation. But God is bigger than our understanding, our comprehension. If he choice to use some form of evolution... so be it, if he did it all in 6 days... so be it. It doesn't make God smaller or bigger if he did or didn't.

I know many christians who believe in 6 day and/or evolution, as is evident here in this thread. Speciation and sexual selction and natural selection DO happen in nature. If theres a huge meltdown and theres a deadly gas encirceling the globe which kills anyone taller than 1.5 metres, then only dwarfs and kids would be alive and only their genes would be passed on, the genes of short people. If there are only two women left on the planet and you had marry one of them and continue the human race, you would choose one (personality/looks whatever) and not have kids with the second lady, thats sexual selection. These things happen in real life.

However to go back in time to the creation of the world and say that there was a soup and it had amino acids in it and they made one protein and they all came together to make a cell... thats is not as plausiable and I personally disagree with that myself. (Tech & Kamm, I know alot more about evolution then those simplistic facts, its an illustration, I do Uni level Biology, but as mentioned earlier I want to end this peacefully).

OKay... in the end, evolution has more credit then you give it Anime4christ, yes it is used intentunally by athiests, the devil and any other force that want to draw people way from believing in God, but overall it is a scietific theory and in itself does not deny Gods awesome power, his sovrentiy, Jesus' sacrifice, God creative imagination and abilities, or the Bibles authority, (people twist it to do so). I have also seen God use evolution itself and its flaws to draw people to him. Darwin did not go out to disprove God, but to study nature and see what happens there, how the ecosystem works itself out. I hope I have somewhat cleared to air, so that both parties will see the fears of the other sides, the bible losing it authority/librealism and irrationality towards science/fundamentalism. Please leave it there guys and lets thank God instead that we have been saved by Christs blood and elected to be his children, one family under God. Amen.

[anime4christ]

Ok, I'll agree this was getting a little out of hand and we need to chill, so I came by to say even though I totally disagree and will disagree with Technomancer and kaemmerite on this issue, I don't wanna become their enemy, so, sorry for the flames guys. God calls to unity not diversity, so that wasn't right. But I also wanted to say, for the same reason I just mentioned, you shouldn't call people who have helped save thousands of souls, like Hovind and Chick, frauds or whatever else that's not nice, cuz they are doing God's work. Ok, thanks.

[Azier the Swordsman]

OKay!!!!!!

Lets all just take a breath and chill for a second here!!!
I can see that everyones getting slightly fustrated, and shots have been fired which have nothing to do with the topic, (such as the fallacies of "poisioning the well", "hasty generalization", and "dicto simplicitor").

I would like to reiturate my point that Genesis' focus is on WHY God created the earth and not HOW he created the earth.... in the end isn't the purpose more important than the means?
Technomancer is not alone in his believe that God may have used evolution as part of his plan, as is evident in Kamm, while Anime4Christ believes in a literal 6 day creation, as does Tintin (aka Warrior 4 Jesus). I know that both sides are Christians saved by the blood of Jesus and love the LORD and want to see him glorified, as do I.



To sum up though, because I would HATE this thread to get locked because of quibbeling over, in the scheme of things, a rather insignificant point, about HOW God created the world. Both sides have some querky issues, although they don't like to admit it, about their notions on the means of God handiwork.
Evolution], but please do not do it here and pm me your answer if you have one, I want to end this unkind and unhealthy debate so that we can move on and agree that there is more to both sides of the debate than just blind ignorance or extreme libralisim, please help me in this ok?)

On the other yes Anime4christ you have a valied point, about evolution being a 'religion' and being used by atheist to try and disprove God. But the only reason it has been snapped up so fast since the 1860's is because it is the only option available to athiest to try and explain our existance without God and not have to face up to their sinfullness. Sinners will use anything to try and hide away from confronting their sins and God just condemnation. But God is bigger than our understanding, our comprehension. If he choice to use some form of evolution... so be it, if he did it all in 6 days... so be it. It doesn't make God smaller or bigger if he did or didn't.

I know many christians who believe in 6 day and/or evolution, as is evident here in this thread. Speciation and sexual selction and natural selection DO happen in nature. If theres a huge meltdown and theres a deadly gas encirceling the globe which kills anyone taller than 1.5 metres, then only dwarfs and kids would be alive and only their genes would be passed on, the genes of short people. If there are only two women left on the planet and you had marry one of them and continue the human race, you would choose one (personality/looks whatever) and not have kids with the second lady, thats sexual selection. These things happen in real life.

However to go back in time to the creation of the world and say that there was a soup and it had amino acids in it and they made one protein and they all came together to make a cell... thats is not as plausiable and I personally disagree with that myself. (Tech & Kamm, I know alot more about evolution then those simplistic facts, its an illustration, I do Uni level Biology, but as mentioned earlier I want to end this peacefully).

OKay... in the end, evolution has more credit then you give it Anime4christ, yes it is used intentunally by athiests, the devil and any other force that want to draw people way from believing in God, but overall it is a scietific theory and in itself does not deny Gods awesome power, his sovrentiy, Jesus' sacrifice, God creative imagination and abilities, or the Bibles authority, (people twist it to do so). I have also seen God use evolution itself and its flaws to draw people to him. Darwin did not go out to disprove God, but to study nature and see what happens there, how the ecosystem works itself out. I hope I have somewhat cleared to air, so that both parties will see the fears of the other sides, the bible losing it authority/librealism and irrationality towards science/fundamentalism. Please leave it there guys and lets thank God instead that we have been saved by Christs blood and elected to be his children, one family under God. Amen.

All I got to say is.... I'm glad you're here.

[anime4christ]

I wanted to say what I said yesterday, but didn't get a chance to, I didn't say it only because Zane stepped in, although it's good he did.

[Azier the Swordsman]

I don't know a whole lot about Hovind... allthough that quote was funny as heck.... but I will say a few things about Chick. I don't care whether his intentions are good or not (IE: leading people to the Lord) but I do not like many aspects of his ministry: He frequently uses his tracts as a means of imposing his beliefs, bashing other religions, forcing his sense of legalism on others, and blatantly mangling (falsifying) history into conspiracy to suit his own needs. Almost ever unsaved person I've ever shown his tracts too have thought they were hilarious... not life changing.... you can't blame them, as he tends to often go way over the top.

[termyt]

Well said, Zane.

[anime4christ]

I don't think we should start anything about Chick or anyone else. And I've watched 3 different editions of Hovinds tapes and didn't hear that quote anywhere. And I'm not going to argue, the main reason I did was because I tried to make some ppl understand a few things and so that anybody wondering about these issues can see also.

[Nate]

I don't know a whole lot about Hovind... allthough that quote was funny as heck.... but I will say a few things about Chick. I don't care whether his intentions are good or not (IE: leading people to the Lord) but I do not like many aspects of his ministry: He frequently uses his tracts as a means of imposing his beliefs, bashing other religions, forcing his sense of legalism on others, and blatantly mangling (falsifying) history into conspiracy to suit his own needs. Almost ever unsaved person I've ever shown his tracts too have thought they were hilarious... not life changing.... you can't blame them, as he tends to often go way over the top.

Yeah, not many people take those Chick tracts seriously. What's the saying? "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar." People who do not believe in Christ or any kind of god aren't going to respond to, "You need to become Christian or you'll burn in Hell!" They don't believe in Hell. Why would they listen to anyone who says that?

Rather, it is through showing the love Christ showed to us that we can attract the lost, not by telling them they're horrible damned sinners that are going to burn for eternity. This is where a lot of my distaste for Chick comes from.

Saying that the Catholic church is the church of Satan and that all Catholics are going to Hell doesn't earn brownie points with me either. I disagree with some Catholic doctrine, but to say that they're Satan's church is really just being way too intolerant. For that matter, I read his synopsis of Catholic doctrine and found a lot of it to be a gross misinterpretation.

I won't say that what he's doing is wrong...it isn't necessarily, he is trying to do the right thing...but he's definitely going about it the wrong way.

[anime4christ]

maybe we should get back to talking about the Bible

[anime4christ]

Why did everyone stop talking?

[Zane]

This thread is usually lies idle for a couple of weeks till someone (or me pretty much, thats why I started it) has a question about the Bible or a passage that they don't really understand and want to see that other Christians have made out about it.

It is not that the debate a couple of weeks ago has killed this thread, I just havn't come across a passage that has really stupped me.

Edit: although thats also what the Bible Study section is for I have just discovered, oh well...

[sanosuke_495]

My favorite verse is Isaiah 40: 29-31, its aweSSome and a great inspiration.