CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

Hey, everyone. It says you can "discuss anything" in the general forum, so here it goes...

For the past few months, I've been seriously thinking about what I want to do when I am older. I'm thinking about being some kind of video game developer. I'm not sure what part. Probably a graphics designer... Or, maybe a programmer... Well, anyway, I'm obviously not really decided. I don't really know what jobs are available, nor do I have any idea what I would have to learn. Like what to take in school, what college to go to, etc. Heck, I really don't have much of a clue of anything. Maybe it's too early to even be thinking about this. I'll be 15 in a few days. I figure the earlier I start preparing, the better, right? Well, anyway, I'm just rambling on and on...

So basically I'm asking... What kind of jobs are there in the gaming industry, and what should one do to start?

Do you know any languages yet? You're best off learning something like C++ for game development. Some 3D graphics experience would probably also help. The great thing is that if you learn some languages, they'll be useful later on if you decide to change your mind...

The job "game designer" simply doesn't exist (search for it on these forums) -- in order to break your way in you will need some pretty good development skills.

Yup, but like I said, I'm not sure what particular job I want.

Anyway, thanks. Am I best off learning this in college, or is there something I should do before then?

TrigunX89 wrote:Anyway, thanks. Am I best off learning this in college, or is there something I should do before then?

Get hold of lots of books/software and start learning to code... a headstart will always be a lot of help. Everyone wants to make computer games, so you will need to place yourself as far ahead as possible.

Concentrate on the basics. You can teach yourself how to program if you're disciplined enough, and are patient enough to take small steps. You also need to develop good programming habits.

It's true that C++ is what's used in industry, however that does not mean that it is necessarily a good language for learning basic programming concepts. Personally, I'd recommend something like Pascal for that. It's a much more disciplined language, and the code is usually more readable, at least early on.

You're still young, and have a lot of time to come to a decision. But, you will need to study your math, and to go as far with it as possible.

Darn. I though so. Math is what I'm worst at...

You're only 15. You have much of Highschool to get better at math. What I would do is expect to take preparatory courses through the first two years of College. Also, you may want to look into schollarship programs as well. Focus hard for the next few years on your math and science, get private tutoring (a friend who'll do it for free is best, like a friend of your parents) and work in groups. If you have at least 3 years left, that will get you Pre-Algebra, Algebra 1, and Algebra 2. After that, in College, you can take Linear Algebra for a semester, Geometry for a semester, Trig for a semester, and Pre-calc for a semester. You'll be done in 4 semesters. Also, you should think about taking Physics in High School. I only recommended taking full year courses on things you're not so good at because it will be easier than the 2x speed the college requires... Boy, I wish I learned that lesson when I was in HS. If you are discovering you can handle it, you may want to try the accelerated thing. In community colleges in the US, you should be able to get free tutoring for a limited amound of time.

For physics, I'd recommend a "conceptual physics" class first. It's good to get a grasp of the concepts before tackling the math involved in a standard physics class.

As for the programming, I'm not in the position to help you there. I suppose it would be a good thing to learn a bit before you go full at it, but I'm going to a school that will specifically be for Game Design, so I'm going to hold off on the programming part until I have the math down. I've heard this from many people, though, and that is DON'T START WITH BASIC! BASIC will make it harder for you to transition to lower level (than BASIC) languages such as C and C++ and low level languages like Assembly.

Being 15, you're coming into this much better prepared than me... I am scrambling to get prepared for "Full Sail" and I'm allready 21... 21 isn't that old really, but the Government sure thinks it is... My age makes it that much harder to get financial aid.

Bobtheduck wrote:As for the programming, I'm not in the position to help you there. I suppose it would be a good thing to learn a bit before you go full at it, but I'm going to a school that will specifically be for Game Design, so I'm going to hold off on the programming part until I have the math down. I've heard this from many people, though, and that is DON'T START WITH BASIC! BASIC will make it harder for you to transition to lower level (than BASIC) languages such as C and C++ and low level languages like Assembly.

I'd honestly have to disagree with that assesment. Most of the popular programming languages (Basic, C, Pascal, and FORTRAN) are all part of the same family group. Many of the basic structures and concepts are in fact the same, and it is these that need to be concentrated on first and foremost when learning programming. Once you've mastered one of these languages, it's actually very easy to cope with the others. The principle drawback to learning BASIC is the fact that it permits "spaghetti code" through the overuse of goto commands. However, it is possible to use the language in a more disciplined fashion.

Well, I've heard C and C++ placed in the realm of "more versatile, less user-friendly" than basic and by programmers, but if that's the primary problem with Basic, how are you supposed to discipline yourself to avoid traps you know nothing about?

I used to program in Basic. I actually made a text based game on my 486, and a "treasure hunting" graphical game on my Apple II. BASIC has no standard, unlike C and C++, so it was a bit of a pain transitioning from the Apple Basic to Microsoft's basic not because of what was different, but because of what was the same. I had heard from a lot of people that Basic can ruin future programmers, though. If that's not really the case, then use Basic, or maybe Pascal instead. I plan on starting with C++ but I may begin to learn it before Full Sail to lower the risks a bit.

Technomancer wrote:The principle drawback to learning BASIC is the fact that it permits "spaghetti code" through the overuse of goto commands. However, it is possible to use the language in a more disciplined fashion.

I NEVER use GOTO commands, or line numbers either (not anymore, did at once time... GWBASIC days). They're evil, EVIL I tell you!

GWBASIC was what i first learnt. in fact, i loved using goto in BASIC. probably because i REMed something before i gotoed it so i avoided making spagetti codes. but those were the old days when i only lived with less than 500 lines of code.

BASIC is a high-level language. so is C++ ; they're 3rd level language. 2nd level is Assembly, and 1st is binary coding. binary coding is just plain crazy for larger systems... few games use Assembly, and most games use 3rd level language. anything using higher level than 3 to be programmed and made is just because of lazy developers.

here's what i'd say; start doing something now. 15 is not late, but it's not early either... at least in my viewpoint.

[edit] few games use Assembly, as in, use entirely Assembly only to make that game. most commercial games would use around 90% of main code like C++ and 10% Assembly.

0.o *gets confused with all the programming talk*

Ahem...I have a dumb question. Must all concept artists (designing characters, backgrounds etc.etc.) of games, also know the various programming languages? If so, then what must be learnt? I'll wait for you guys to come to an agreement.

you don't have to, but it's good for you. in fact, a very good general knowledge in computing is welcome when you want to enter the gaming industry.

because afterall, you might have to understand some games don't run high resolution images on faces, thus is the limit of the engine. Hl2 last i heard allows very high coloured faces but doesn't allow anything higher than 512x512.

This is not researched, this is all merely conjecture, but this is how I see it:

concept designers don't get into the game industry without some sort of history... I.E the VERY arduous road of getting established as an artist, then having someone choose you as concept artist for their project. Concept artist have nothing to do with 3d modeling, and don't have to have much to do with details... They do concepts... That's it. You have to be established as an artist and offer your services to people who want design concepts for other things before you work your way to games... Either that, or get a basic job in the game industry (programming job or modeling job) and sneak in your concept art.

Once again, that was all just conjecture.

[button=off topic]Speaking of conjecture (or not really), Im watching third rock from the sun, and theyre saying everyone thinks physics is boring... Physics Boring? Maybe if you start on the math first, but starting with the conceptual stuff first makes it VERY fun! So much stuff to make any sci-fi fan giddy... Just a way-off sidenote... [/button]

One thing that I would recommend to people is to seriously consider keeping their options open as much as possible. Don't get hing up on the idea of video game development so much that you lose sight of other possibilities. Instead of a highly specialized college program, you may find it more valuable in the end to have pursued a university degree in computer science. This will give you not only more flexibility in your career, but will also ensure that you have a stronger grasp of the fundamental theory, which is invaluable to those interested in developing the state of the art.

I strongly disagree... A degree in computer science leaves out all the, by nature, artistic needs of Video Game Design. You can start with a specialized skill and MOVE ON to the broader computer degree (maybe a masters) so that you have the foundation of art and design skills to produce the video games. Also, for those of us who feel called to this work, there IS no other choice. Maybe something small until we pay back our loans, but after that, the Game road is the only one we're going down.

Just getting a computer science degree will leave out many important aspects of developing games, and make it easier to lose our dreams and slip into the more mechanical work of IT or something. There's nothing wrong with that; it brings in money, it can be fulfilling if you really enjoy that... It should not, however, be a substitute for a dream like Game Design. Game Design is a field that Christians do not have a foot in. Please do not discourage those of us who would wish to start a pioneering work in this industry.

Tech has a point. Thinking realistically, specialising with degrees is better suited for entering markets which have a high demand for new graduates. Specialise with the intent of entering a competitive, highly elite market and you'll almost certainly have great difficulty in finding work.

However if you are absolutely rock solid certain that God is leading you towards game development and you have prayed and prayed and prayed about it (not all motivations come from God), then I guess specialised degrees might be a better option. However if it turns out that you made a mistake, finding a job will be very difficult for you. The game industry forms part of the media and entertainment industry, and as with all jobs in that area, it's incredibly difficult to get any kind of foothold.

The days of a couple of guys working in the garage are over. There are many jobs in computer game design, and no one person can do all of them. In fact ,the chances are, that the programming guys aren't the ones doing the artwork- they're the ones who build the models that the art fits on top of. Or working out some new 3-d audio-visual environment, or the many other tasks needed to improve game performance. What I'm saying is that a CS degree ensures that graduates have the breadth and depth needed to be the ones developing the platforms of tomorrow.

The game degree at Full Sail IS a computer science Degree. You're asking us to LIMIT ourselves by ONLY doing the Computer sceience instead of the other things. Since, as Christians, we have a desire to be making our own games after working our way up in the Industry, to limit ourselves to ONLY the mechanical aspect of the Game design is really the dangerous road. We can always move onto a masters in Computer Science, but it would be best to get the one that is focused on what we want to get into.

Gone are the days of Garage development and here is the day of a major hole in Christian influence. Not saying you should do this merely because of need... God MUST call you to this. However, I am sure God has called me to this, after much praying that I and others have done, and confirming by many people. I am not suggesting that we start up our own little group and expect to hit big. That's been a problem of many attempts. Instead, we should MAKE SURE we get into the industry and work our way up. We should continue to network and eventually we will have established ourselves in the industry and can have authority to work on the Christian Games... If God HAS called us, and we "take the safe road" and don't learn about the industry, but only learn about the mechanics of programming, that does not prepare us for entering that industry and for working our way up. What I said stands and I still disagree with you, given that the peoople interested in this have heard God's call. (darn my inferior grasp of the English language... I meant "if" by "given" If they have been called, then there is no other road)

It is important to develop practical skills though, otherwise you will serve no use within the work environment. Knowing about how the industry works is not enough.

What sort of practical skills are you referring to. Because the training I'm going through teaches you all sorts of practical skills.

I have admitted to flaws in the "all day" nature of certain things in the Full Sail program, however, the math and science out of the way, I believe that the all day study with a limited number of students per teacher is a perfect set-up, and that the classes work to prepare you in EVERY way for the industry.

An EA games rep said straight out that they would hire anyone who applied from Full Sail with a B or better in their game project. They don't just teach the mechanical or even Artistic aspects of game design and programming... They also teach the networking, the resumee making, the application process, the work environment... They teach all sorts of life skills in addition to the other things. That is all specifically for Games but can be applied to other areas, since you will have the programming and some artistic training to fall back on.

Like I said, however, I don't think there is a "falling back" if God has really called you.

What sort of practical skills are you referring to. Because the training I'm going through teaches you all sorts of practical skills

Depends what area of the industry you want to work in ... for example if I was entering the gaming industry I'd be learning how to program (C++, maybe a bit of DELPHI, Assebly, etc.. ), because that's something I'm already comfortable with.

University classes should not be the sole source of skill development anyway -- in order to succeed you've gotta learn things in your spare time as well, which of course is no problem if you enjoy learning those skills.

For example, I enjoy coding, and I skip all my programming lectures because they bore me to death. are two lectures about using Java's print command really necessary?

Anyway, from your posts I'm fairly certain God has called you to this, so I will pray for you.

(EDIT: Just read the rest of your post, full sail looks pretty sweet)

>>>>Depends what area of the industry you want to work in ... for example if I was entering the gaming industry I'd be learning how to program (C++, maybe a bit of DELPHI, Assebly, etc.. ), because that's something I'm already comfortable with.<<<<

Programming, math, and Physics are givens. To enter the Game world without them is like walking naked into a beehive.

>>>University classes should not be the sole source of skill development anyway -- in order to succeed you've gotta learn things in your spare time as well, which of course is no problem if you enjoy learning those skills. <<<

Agreed

>>>For example, I enjoy coding, and I skip all my programming lectures because they bore me to death. are two lectures about using Java's print command really necessary?<<<

The Classes I'll be taking are part lecture, part guided work.

>>>Anyway, from your posts I'm fairly certain God has called you to this, so I will pray for you. <<<

Thank you!

>>>(EDIT: Just read the rest of your post, full sail looks pretty sweet)<<<

Yes, but it is very hard and anyone going into it should be more prepared than Full Sail suggests... But, yes, it is very sweet. ^_^

The Classes I'll be taking are part lecture, part guided work.

That's what mine are like as well. I only turn up for the labs, because the assessment is based upon practical programming exercises. For me, programming books have always been about 10 times better than lectures anyway. I like to learn at my own pace, and I like to be able to reread something if I don't understand it. Buy lots of books!

Just to clarify, I am not trying to dissuade people, but am hoping to make them aware of the options available. For example, the sort of programme that I'm talking about has courses of the sort:
http://www.cas.mcmaster.ca/cas/undergraduate/courses.html

I wish you all the luck in the world, since you do know what you want. However, those who are younger and still trying to decide need to be aware of all possibilties.

I skipped most of my programming lectures as well. However, the lectures on theory are usually worth showing up for (e.g. Data Structures and Algorithms, etc)

edit: note- the link I posted doesn't show the required math courses.

My my my, I should be here at CAA more. Anyway if you guys don't know I've picked to be a game designer also because of a similar calling I feel from the Lord like Bob. But I also want to develop my own game studio and have an animation branch along with it. Anyway too get back on topic it just depends on what you want too do in game development. Because schools are schools.

All a degree shows an employer is that your willing and have the time to finish somthing. That's all, I think it really comes down too your talents. But do get a degree that is important. But hey I'm not putting down those schools that are teaching game design but if you can go too one and afford it hey go for it more power too you and it looks better to a game company to have a degree for that area. But if you can't go too one of those schools don't fret.

If you want too be a programmer learn programming and computer science that also goes too if you want too be on that side if game development the technical side. But if you want too be on the more artistic side of things learn art and design. But like I said you should find out more about want you really want too do. But as for being a game designer you need too learn everything you can of both sides of game development. But i recommed you still learn somthing other than Just game design first calling from God or not.

Because hey you gotta support yourself while you search for a Job in the industry because it is not gonna be easy finding a job in the industry. But anyway yes try too do somthing near that field now. If possible try too make a finshed game no matter how bad it is or how bad the art is finish it. That's what i'm trying too do right now. Yea and if there are any artists out there reading this that can draw good in anime style and are willing too help me out with art for this new game I'm working on send me a Pm or somthing. Well anyway there is my take on this topic.

Remember; experience > paper acknowledgement in gaming industry. A solid portfolio of years of work will outdo any college degree. Why bother with college students who virtually has no work except same things the college gives them as 'assignments' every year, when you have few others who just spent few more years actually learning to use Photoshop properly and can actually whip up something creative. Or can use C++ like they speak their primary language at home. Or do complex vertex calculations in their head in a whip without even putting an effort into it.

Ultimately, experience + paper acknowledgement = will guarantee a job in gaming industry. I guess I am lucky for starting programming when I was 8... at least it's better than playing piano. That thing is boring as.

Don't you just love that? No experience=no job, no job=no experience. Definately look for co-op positions or be aggressive about looking for summer jobs. Start early too.

However, there is a value in qualifications, since they do provide a certain objective assesment about a person's skills.

That's why it's an even grander idea to work on a game/something-or-rather yourself between your work/school/family reunion/church etc etc. imagine the look on the face of developers when you just finished uni/college, and has this CD full of things that you did in your spare time that just simply is outstanding.

Degrees alone do still provide a chance though; it just might be that you'll have to go through from a normal computing industry then slowly progress into the gaming industry. first be a code monkey for some database writing software company. then become a web-site designer using databases, then move onto using java for perhaps 3D work on a website, then progress into gaming slowly.

just to add to all; never give up.

I plan on aiming low for my ground work. After Full Sail, I'll try to work for EA... EA accepts people right out of Full Sail with no real experience. I'll work there for a couple years if possible, and then move on to bigger and better things, such as setting my sights on Japan...